Subject: SMML VOL 2271 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:11:27 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Revell Lionfish model 2: Anti Virus Software 3: Re: Yamato Again 4: Re: S-boote hull 5: Re: Snyder & Short Paint Chip Series 6: O class destroyers 7: Re: Lionfish 8: O Class destroyers / Tamiya kit update 9: "red lead decks" 10: S-Boote Plans 11: Unknown Boat model 12: Camouflage ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: SMML Site Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: S-boote book- a positive view ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Revell Lionfish model >> Several months ago I opened all the molded vent holes on the Revell Lionfish model and also added the top of the pressure hull. Does anyone know what color the pressure hull and undersides of the superstructure were painted? I can not find any references here. Just guessing, these items may have been covered with a red/rust color anti-fouling paint. Another guess is that the pressure hull and undersides may have been painted flat black. My final guess would be that where visible, their color would follow the external three color camo scheme. Any help here? << David, Our freind John Sheridan has posted the ultimate guide for late WW2 USN ship painting, the INSTRUCTIONS FOR PAINTING AND CEMENTING VESSELS OF THE UNITED STATES NAVY - Edition of June 1943 http://shipcamouflage.com/painting_and_cementing_toc.htm Under the submarine section for exterior painting it says: "Ungalvanized areas within the superstructure and fairwaters and interior of free-flooding spaces, shall be painted with one coat of black plastic composition, formula 90, over one coat of dark zinc chromate primer, formula 84D, and one coat of anticorrosive paint, formula 14D. Galvanized areas inside the superstructure and fairwaters and interior of free-flooding spaces, shall be painted with one coat of dull black paint, formula 13, over one coat of dark zinc chromate primer, formula 84D." So the answer would be black, I would most probably reccomend Polly Scale's Scale Black #505014 with chipping showing whatever ZC primer (Yellow or Green - 84 was ZCG, but often ZCY was used as availablity demanded) you prefer if desired. Dark ZC 84D was made by adding lampblack to ZCG. James Corley Nautilus Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject: Anti Virus Software Hi All I used to work with a bunch of computer tech nerds at my last job. One of these guys used to go around configuring systems and loading up financoial lanning software systems. He told me that he used McAfee because he believed it found viruses which norton couldn't on various systems he had checked. I must say I've got McAfee Virus scan and fire wall and they are excellent products, which automatically update themselves everytime you go on line. They've also got various anti spam tools and other devices. Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: Yamato Again >> The Yamato had some kind of device in order to protect the superstructures of the ship been shot when the guns had to rotate fast, when aiming to a moving target, an aircraft. << Aha! In the USCG and USN we used to call those "Idiot bars." and other less complimentary terms. There are several good sources for the arrangement of these bars. However you will not find them in any of the builders drawings. They were not added until after the ships were launched. The arrangements on the Yamato and Musashi were quite different. The three Gakken books War in the Pacific #11 and #20 along with the Super Detail #2 (the first two are soft bound and the last one is hard bound) have very good models showing the placement of these bars. There is also a new book in Japanese showing photos rendered from a highly detailed 3D computer model of the Yamato. There are no good photographs of the Yamato showing these bars so you will have to rely on the models and drawings. I will look up the actual titles and send those along too. Best regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Re: S-boote hull MicroGlass (www.microglass.net) offers a 1/32 scale fiberglass S-boote hull, along with a variety of other types. Frank's Mosquito Boat Hobbies offers one in 1/24 scale. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Snyder & Short Paint Chip Series Hi Craig, >> after watching the movie "Dive Bomber" made in 1941 I decided to ask to ask a question. << Now you've done it! I'm going to have to dig out my copy of "Dive Bomber" and watch it again, just for all the great pre-war color. Cheers, John Snyder ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: O class destroyers Hi All A few comments on the JKN and later destroyers. Every wartime destroyer up to the Cs was based on the JKN class hull. However this should not be taken as assuming that the hull was the same. Various modifications were made depending on what armament fit the ship was intended to carry and what other design factors were thought to be important. The transom stern added about 0.5 knots to the speed and this was considered worth including for example. The JKN bow was designed with low silhouette in mind and so in certain sea conditions did have problems with spray. The Tribal bow was better in this respect but because of this encouraged captains to go at higher speeds and so risk damage to the ship by going too fast for the conditions. The upshot is that with each type of destroyer you need to find accurate plans before deciding which hull to use. Christopher Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Ives100 Subject: Re: Lionfish >> Several months ago I opened all the molded vent holes on the Revell Lionfish model and also added the top of the pressure hull. Does anyone know what color the pressure hull and undersides of the superstructure were painted? I can not find any references here. Just guessing, these items may have been covered with a red/rust color anti-fouling paint. Another guess is that the pressure hull and undersides may have been painted flat black. My final guess would be that where visible, their color would follow the external three color camo scheme. Any help here? << It's gray. Later in the war, when the 3 color camo scheme was used, some subs had white on the pressure hull that showed through the limber holes (to blend in with the wave tops). There was no red/rust anti-foul an any of the fleet boats during the war. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: O Class destroyers / Tamiya kit update A couple of corrections to my earlier post - with thanks to Tim Stoneman for spotting the errors. Whilst the main part of my rantings was correct (Tamiya kit can be used and O/P classes are a shoertened JKN NOT a derivative of the A-I Leaders), it appears I made a couple of errors in the margins relating to the O/P/Q classes. When I stated that all the L, M and O to Z class leaders had a fatter afterdeck that should have read L, M, O to Q. From the R class onwards there was a radical (for the RN of the day) change to internal arrangements where the Officers were now berthed in and under the bridge, not in and under the aft deckhouse. As part of the reorganisation the need for additional accomodation in the aft deckhouse disappeared and the Leaders had the same configuration as the rest of the flottila. Efficiencies must have occurred as this was also true of the bridge and forecastle, and all ships no longer needed a radar office under the foremast. The O, P and Q leaders had a slight extension to the bridge and forecastle (1 frame). The only noticeable effect is that these ships carried only two large boats - a 25ft 2 cabin fast motor boat and a 27ft whaler. As leaders they also carried the 16ft skimmer. I have measured the Tamiya kit carefully and it is the longer, leader, forecastle ship. This is easily adjusted with a razor saw. The aft deckhouse is the Leader variant and needs reshaping - or borrow a short deckhouse from the old Matchbox JKN kit. Even the Leader variant needs some re-shaping. It is acknowledged that the kit needs a lot of other work not listed here to make any P or O class. A Q or R class would be an easy conversion of a JKN class (not leader) kit with a set of 4.7in singles (which WEM sell) as they had the same hull with the aft deckhouse moved forward and an enlarged set of wings to the searchlight platform (for 4 single 20mm). Sorry if I misled anyone. John Sutherland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Jeffon10 Subject: "red lead decks" WRT WW 2 and pre-WW 2 deck colors. 1. I suspect US destroyers prior to the issuance of the USN 1937 instructions had red-lead decks. (Comments???) 2. WRT Commonwealth destroyers: Pre-war, they reportedly had brown corticene (spelling??) decks where the crew spent most of their time as in near the main guns. (I suspect this was applied at least on the A-F Classes and the TRIBALs.) Adjacent steel deck area colors unknown. (Comments anyone??? --- I have one suspect WW 2 color photo of a TRIBAL Class destroyer and an ENSIGN publication on the V&Ws that suggests the color of steel decks was red lead into early WW 2). For any early "alphabet" class or TRIBAL class destroyer that served in the Arctic, the "corticene" (tile-like) material would not have survived the application of steam or axes to remove ice. So, what was their deck color? Was the "corticine" removed prior to deployment and the deck painted red lead? (Remember in this time frame there was considerable contempt for the aircraft threat to ships and the need to camouflage ships from air detection was not an issue.) (Coments, please???) 3. During WW 2, a "cemtex" antiskid material was introduced for Commonwealth ships. If memory serves, this was basically light gray but may have been painted to match the adjacent steel deck areas. I have a Canadian reference that cites that for corvettes being preparied for Pacific service in 1945 the "cemtex" areas no longer needed to be painted. Does this suggest that mid-war fleet Commonwealth destroyers (like British 0-Z and CA,CH, CR classes) had monotone decks??? 4. It gets worse. Alas, what of the G-N Classes deck colors??? 5. As for my specific interests, I would like to build a model of a HUNT III Class "light destroyer." Not being a "fleet" destroyer, did the decks have corticene (unlikely) or cemtex? In summary, were the decks, a mix of brown and gray or red lead? An indeterminate color of gray and light gray cemtex? Red lead and gray cemtex? Monotone? 6. What color was Commonwealth "red lead"? 7. Deck color questions for Japanese and German WW 2 destroyer/escort types will be asked in a followup e-mail if I generate any interest in this subject or should we just paint all the decks dark gray and wallow in ignorace? 8. Oh, of course, there's the question of underhull colors as well if you build over about 1/-500th. Jeff IPMS Washington Ship Model Society ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "dengar" Subject: S-Boote Plans Re request from "Lou Meszaros " Try this site http://www.modellskipper.de/lexikon/bauplan/dokument/doc3/thema527.htm Regards Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Alan Roots Subject: Unknown Boat model Can anyone identitify this plastic model/toy boat. It has no makers name or moulding marks. The hull is heavy thick plastic about 1/16"/1.5mm thick. Beam: - 5 1/16"/130mm. Length : - 25 1/2"/647mm. It seems originally to have been fitted with automatic steering which could be set to auto or manual, there is also a slot across the top of the wheel house, maybe for a sliding control of some sort. In my opinion the boat is more a toy rather than scale model, perhaps a better description would be semi scale. It reminds me of the Lindberg destroyer kit but of better quality and manufacture. It was given to me by a friend with a request to "make it go", in other words fit it with an electric motor and R/C. I have put some images of the boar on a temporary web site you can find it at:- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.roots1 If you can help please let me know either through the SMML or at alan.roots1@ntlworld.com or preferably both. Many Thanks Rootsy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: roger.antrobus Subject: Camouflage Hello folks Does anyone know whether HMS Queen Elizabeth had camouflage till she was reserved, or did she have a plain grey when she went to the Eastern Fleet in 1944 and then the East Indies Fleet. I'm hoping I can find evidence of her painted plain grey some time during WWII. If she was ever plain grey, which grey was that - B5? I hope someone can throw some light on this for me, thanks in anticipation. Roger Antrobus Sussex, England ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mistress Lorna Subject: SMML Site Update The following Reference Pages have been added: JMSDF Hamayuki & Sawagiri added to Japanese Reference Jeremiah O'Brien's 20mm AA Cannon added to USN Reference More images added to the Jeremiah O'Brien Walkaround page More coming so stay tuned to see what's next ;-) Cheers Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: S-boote book- a positive view >> I agree, the book is great and money well spent (from the WalMart site). I am hoping this list can help me locate plans (specifically hull lines) to make my own hull, as they are not in this book. Does anyone know of any good sources? I have tried: http://www.prinzeugen.com/Plans.htm http://lonestar.texas.net/~glover/georgege.html http://modelyard.narod.ru/english/draw/germ.htm http://www.model-dockyard.com/plans/marinem1.asp http://www.warship.get.net.pl/_Articles/Model_plans.html << There are drawings of the hull lines of a type 38 S-boat in my book, Warship Pictorial #15 Kriegsmarine Schnellboote. Also, the drawing reproduction in my book is much better and they are copies of original German drawings included. I just spoke with Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies and he said he still had a few of my books in stock. As this book has now been out of print since January, these are hard to find. Contact Pacific Front Hobbies @ www.pacificfront.com Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume