Subject: SMML VOL 2272 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:39:21 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln -- Photo Journal 2: Re: Unknown Boat Model 3: Re: Yamato Again 4: camo for Queens 5: Re: O Class Destroyers - Tamiya kit 6: Re: Revell Lionfish model/"red lead decks" 7: Re: Prinz Eugen 8: prices & help ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: SMML Site update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WTB: Heller 1/400 Jean Bart & Dunkerque ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Kutina Subject: Aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln -- Photo Journal http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lincoln/subcategory.asp?DisplayType=ThumbDesc&SubID=421 Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ouellette, Lawrence M" Subject: Re: Unknown Boat Model From: Alan Roots >> I have put some images of the boar on a temporary web site you can find it at:- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.roots1 << Alan, I can't help you with your specific boat, but I had some memory recall when I went to your site! I had a motorized toy boat of just about the same size back when I was 10-12 years old or so. I do remember trying to convert it to a Coast Guard Cutter by putting many, many coats of white paint over the light blue or gray hull (now I know: grey/white primer first!). I did paint the orange slash, but made no attempt at the insignia. My boat wasn't the same as yours as it didn't have any large markings on it or that elongated slot in the cabin. Of course, my boat has long since been buried under tons of garbage at a landfill somewhere. I honestly can't remember if mine had guns or depth charges or any armament. Good luck. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Nuno J. V. Rubim" Subject: Re: Yamato Again Duane Fowler wrote: >> There is also a new book in Japanese showing photos rendered from a highly detailed 3D computer model of the Yamato. << Thank you for your explanations and the given sources on this question. What is the name of the japanese book? N.Rubim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "David L. Fisher" Subject: camo for Queens A possible source of information would be Bob Summeral at the US Naval Academy Museum. I don't know the site address but a google search should find it. Dave Fisher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: O Class Destroyers - Tamiya kit Terry asked in 2270 >> A few comments/questions. My main source being ensign 6 "War built Destroyers O to Z Classes" by Alan Raven and John Roberts. If I read this book correctly the O and P class were a totally new design smaller although obviously influenced by the J, K class and using the same machinery. The next pair the Q and R class used the larger J class hull design, the main difference being that they had a squared off stern which gave a speed and endurance advantage at high speeds. The next pair the S and T's used the same hull but with a Tribal type bow which produced less spray than the J class. How does this sound to you? You seem to suggest that the O and P class are more closely based on the J and K class than the book does. Also what exactly is the Tribal bow? I've looked at photo's and plans but I'm still not sure. If I had to guess I would say it was more flared than the earlier bow. It has crossed my mind that if you took a WEM J class kit in 1/700 or 1/350 squared off the stern and put single instead of twin 4.7 inch guns on it you could start a collection of British War Emergency Destroyers. I'm sure it's not that simple but it's a nice though..... << Terry - the comment on the Ops being a shrunk J class is mine. The more I look at the OP class the more it seems a chopped off J class with a bit missing between the tubes and the aft deckhouse and a squarer stern. The layout, shape and size of the structures are too identical. Postulating - given they were supposed to be a cheap off the shelf destroyer to rapidly boost numbers, and the J design was the last "inexpensive" design (the L & Ms were really expensive), the more a slightly scaled down J makes sense. Designing a new destroyer from scratch would have taken TIME - which doesn't make sense to the rational of the OPs. Only the quaterdeck seems to have been really changed - probably the first destroyer with a Y gun that had a decent amount of room on it. The use of single 4.7in and quad TTs was, amongst other reasons, due to their off the shelf availability (being removed from A to I class in all probability). I would agree with your comments on modelling Q and R class. Remember the R class leader was a standard ship (true of all subsequent leaders too) whereas the Q class leader was like the OP leaders. I too struggle with a "Tribal bow". The tribal class had more rake - the effect is that while the overall length of the S-Z went up in comparison to the QRs the waterline length stayed the same. It is not easy to achieve. Maybe WEM or B-Resina who do JKN class will provide the QR and S-Z classes for us one day. The first would be a simple mod of the Kashmir/Jupiter. The Aussie Q boats had quite a few interesting mods late war. The biggest hassle with the S-Zs is the guns! I believe Chris Langtree tried to persuade WEM some time ago to do an etched brass shield for them without success. Mind you we could really use an etched set for the A-I class for which there are a number of kits all without brass, same comment for the LM class kits. The British destroyers are not well served in this area. Any manufacturers listening? "Darshan Ward" commented >> If a later war Onslow is desired she received the very first lattice mast 4/43. Prior to this Y gun was landed for extra DC stowage and 2x 20 mm P&S at Y position." << First part agreed - but never heard of or seen evidence of Onslow losing Y gun. Agreed the two 20mm were mounted there - but Onslow (like all OPs) had a big quarterdeck - plenty of room without unshipping the 4.7in. This was a common mod for the A to I class but never heard or seen of it on subsequent classes until post war. Photo of Onslow in June 45 clearly shows the barrels of two 4.7in astern. Be very interested to know where this came from - or how long it lasted - it would be different and worth modelling! happy modelling John Sutherland Porirua, New Zealand on a fine sunny day ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Revell Lionfish model/"red lead decks" >> So the answer would be black, I would most probably reccomend Polly Scale's Scale Black #505014 with chipping showing whatever ZC primer (Yellow or Green - 84 was ZCG, but often ZCY was used as availablity demanded) you prefer if desired. Dark ZC 84D was made by adding lampblack to ZCG. << I've got some samples of 84D (somewhere) taken off the RED OAK VICTORY. It's very dark--along the lines of Humbrol 3 Brunswick Green, or Colourcoats 5-NG Navy Green. >> 1. I suspect US destroyers prior to the issuance of the USN 1937 instructions had red-lead decks. (Comments???) << No, the interwar period paint scheme using #20 Standard Deck Gray horizontal surfaces came into use by 1918, and prevailed throughout the Fleet. >> 2. WRT Commonwealth destroyers: Pre-war, they reportedly had brown corticene (spelling??) decks where the crew spent most of their time as in near the main guns. (I suspect this was applied at least on the A-F Classes and the TRIBALs.) Adjacent steel deck area colors unknown. (Comments anyone??? --- I have one suspect WW 2 color photo of a TRIBAL Class destroyer and an ENSIGN publication on the V&Ws that suggests the color of steel decks was red lead into early WW 2). For any early "alphabet" class or TRIBAL class destroyer that served in the Arctic, the "corticene" (tile-like) material would not have survived the application of steam or axes to remove ice. So, what was their deck color? Was the "corticine" removed prior to deployment and the deck painted red lead? (Remember in this time frame there was considerable contempt for the aircraft threat to ships and the need to camouflage ships from air detection was not an issue.) (Coments, please???) << AFAIK (Alan Raven & Chris Amano-Langtree, chime in here), there were no red lead decks on Commonwealth DDs, and certainly there was no contempt for the air threat. Deck colors (dependent upon the type of camouflage being worn by the particular ship) were generally dark greys or dark blue-greys (AP 507A, B-15, etc.). There certainly may have been occasions where finish paints weathered away to reveal the red lead primer, but this would have been corrected at the first available opportunity. >> 6. What color was Commonwealth "red lead"? << Basically, see Colourcoats RN19. >> 8. Oh, of course, there's the question of underhull colors as well if you build over about 1/-500th. << We've already matched the wartime antifouling reds of the USN, RN, and Kriegsmarine, so no need to argue those points. Suggest you also have a look at the wealth of info available at http://www.shipcamouflage.com, including databases, official USN painting instructions, and Alan Raven's multi-part series on the development of RN and USN camouflage. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://whiteensignmodels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen There is a very interesting book entitled "Ghost Fleet, The Sunken Ships of Bikini Atoll" by James P. Delgado (Universty of Hawaii Press, 1996) which has a brief, but fairly detailed, description of the condition of the Prinz Eugen as of 1990. The assessment at that time was pretty grim, although the issue of salvage was not specifically discussed. The author did note how much the wreck had deteriorated in the fourteen years since Navy divers had surveyed the hull in 1974, and it has now been another thirteen years beyond that. A fascinating book which tells the story of the atomic bomb tests at Bikini in detail, as well as state of the atoll and the condition and location of many of the ships as of the early '90's, particularly the Saratoga. Steve Sobieralski ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: gail mcleish Subject: prices & help hello & help, my father has joined a model club & has no computer, Im doing the searches. Hes after some etched brass fittings for the lindberg fletcher class destroyer & the prices 1-125 scale, we live in australia, hes on one side & Im on the other.Can anyone help me or point me in the right direction. thankyou gail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mistress Lorna Subject: SMML Site update Hi all, The following Reference pages have been added to the website: The Matthew replica added to Civilian References; RN References(Updated): HMS Bulwark We've also received a photo HMS Ark Royal in 1941 from WR Press and have uploaded it to the Misc Reference page as a further illustration of the recent colour thread on SMML about the Ark Royal. Cheers Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Seil romainromainr Subject: WTB: Heller 1/400 Jean Bart & Dunkerque Hello I am looking for the 1/400 kits of Jean Bart and Dunkerque by Heller. If you have one of these and want to part with it please contact me at: seilram@pt.lu or romainseil@freecmd.lu Romain Seil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume