Subject: SMML VOL 2296 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:59:39 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Bell Bottoms 2: Re: Tom's Modelworks USN Radar PE Set 1/700 3: Just when you think you've seen everything 4: Reason for Bell Bottoms 5: Re: National Archives 6: Re: National Archives 7: Re: Bell bottoms... 8: Re Bell Bottoms 9: They are NOT "bell bottoms"! 10: Bellbottoms 11: RN Vehicles 12: Re: Bell Bottoms 13: Re: Bell Bottoms 14: Black Swans and an update! 15: Re: R.N.Vehicles & Bell Bottoms 16: Navy "Bell Bottoms"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: ROCON is a Week Away -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: AOTS HMS Belfast revised edition released and New books from Classic Warships ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Joel Labow Subject: Bell Bottoms I was told in boot camp (NRD Great Lakes 1962) that the origin of the bell bottom was to facilitate rolling up the trouser legs during swabbing and holystoning topside wooden decks. Obviously this was not an evolution that chiefs and officers were likely to be participating in (other than as supervisors). Joel Labow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: Tom's Modelworks USN Radar PE Set 1/700 From: potter4 >> Has anyone a list of radar antennas in Tom's Modelworks US Naval Radar PE Set #706? Does it contain SM and SPS-8? << You can look at a scan of the set here: http://www.tomsmodelworks.com/photo.asp?Brass!Detailing!Sets|1/700!Scale!Photoetched!Brass!Detail!Sets|706 If that link is too long, go to Tom's site and click down: http://www.tomsmodelworks.com/ Joe Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: BSteinIPMS Subject: Just when you think you've seen everything And I thought I was obsessive-compulsive! Check out this SD14 general cargo ship: http://www.marcle.co.uk/sd14.htm If you must know more, here's the home page: http://www.marcle.co.uk/index.htm Bob Steinbrunn Stillwater, MN Nautical Research Guild ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: aandmblevins Subject: Reason for Bell Bottoms I have heard that the original reason for bell bottoms was that they were easier to roll up when engaged in such watery duties as swabbing the deck. The second reason, I believe and this includes the tight blouse with its collar and scarf, is tradition. In the 1980's, when I had two sons in the USN, there was a period where the enlisted men's uniforms were changed to resemble those of the CPO's. This was eventually amended and the bell bottoms, or "Cracker Jacks", were restored at the popular request of the EM. Even more than tradition, the EM realized that the Cracker Jacks were much better suited for storage in the limited amount of area allowed EM on shipboard. Al Blevins ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Diodor Subject: Re: National Archives The best and most economical way to get photos from National Archives is to go there with your camera, preferably digital, and use the copy stands that are there for the purpose. (Of course you'll have to get checked in with your card, etc. first). The stands are equipped with good lighting. My son Dan and I have done this several times with good results. One problem that comes up now and then is when the photo you've had them pull for you tends to curl. NARA will not permit any weights or anything to hold the photo down flat. That's why it's nice to have another person with you. One can hold the edges down while the other takes the picture. They provide white cotton gloves for handling all photos. It is mandatory to wear these. While on the subject of NARA, it is true they are understaffed but I have always found them to be very helpful and cooperative. The facility (Archives II, College Park) is clean and does pretty well considering the understaffing. Ted Treadwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Mike Toole" Subject: Re: National Archives National Archives, what a deal! IF you go there you can do much better. They now have some very good to excellent photo-copiers, other than "cheep" paper you get great copies. (Photo quality in B&W and Color) To use a second vendor from the list will cost you about $50 for the first photo, a little less for the next few. Mostly because they have to go to the archive, pull the photo and do their thing. Hot tip-write the archive office and ask for some photographs of your subject, I got 10 free. But know what to ask for, ships hull numbers change, so does their file, a WWII LST is in one file, same ship as USS County, is in another. Another shame is that as people are retired the replacement staff might have no idea what you are asking for. To them, Normandy invasion is "Saving Private Ryan". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Chris Hughes" Subject: Re: Bell bottoms... I'm sure some "Fish'eads" will roll in on this one, but when I were a lad, we used to see the Cadets from the Merchant Navy training school, Indefatigable, on runs ashore in N Wales. Their immaculate bell-bottoms had a series of horizontal creases ironed in and, on asking for an explanation, I was told it was so that they could be rolled up for such activities as deck-scrubbing and holystoning. The bell bottoms made it easier to roll up (or fold) the trouser legs. As for the tight blouses, I thought it was to show orf all those big muskles, like wot Popeye 'as! Arf! arf! arf! Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John W Currie Subject: Re Bell Bottoms Bell Bottoms, were so designed so as they easily rolled up past the knees for getting down on hands and knees and scrubbing and that deck clean, thats why the Senior rates and Officers never wore them. Thats the Royal Navy version. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: They are NOT "bell bottoms"! Having been in the USN in the 60's, I have first hand knowledge that the pants that the Navy issues you, blue, white and dungarees, are straight legged. They are the same diameter from top to bottom. There is no bell to them at all. I can only assume that this makes them cheaper and easier to make. If you wanted to be stylish, you had several options. You could go to a tailor shop (there were always some across the street from any large naval base) and have your pants taken in at the knee, thus creating a bell bottom. You could also get a set of tailor made (actually ready mades tailored to you) gabardines that were bell bottoms. These were actually black instead of blue. If you wore either of these pants to personnel inspection, you would get in trouble. (actually, most sailors had an inspection uniform that they never wore for anything except inspection). Most sailors wore Seafarer brand dungarees. These were not navy issue, but were purchased at the same place as you got your tailor made uniforms. They were bell bottoms and had a zipper instead of buttons. They were much more stylish that navy issue, but were sometimes not allowed depending on the commanding officers tastes. One thing people may not realize is that we folded our uniforms inside out. The creases on our pants and sleeves were concave instead of convex. This is another reason that the pants were straight legged. They were easier to fold properly. Jim Johnson MM2 (retired) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jim McNeil" Subject: Bellbottoms I also heard about bell bottoms being easier to get out of in the water, but considering how tight they often were about the thighs I doubt that is the reason. I did read somewhere that they originated in the Royal Navy so that the tars could roll up their pants in the morning so they would not get wet when they hosed down the deck and then holystoned the deck. Someone from Britain should be able to answer this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Stuart Batchelor" Subject: RN Vehicles FWIW there is a early 1950's movie (yes, it is a typical PR flick) covering the Royal Marines raid on the french ports using kayaks. I can't recall the name (Cockleshell Heros?), but it has some shots with RN vehicles. The admin types were dark blue as described, and IIRC, the tactical types were in the proper green camo. There also some shots of the Limbo/Squid ASW mortar in action. HTH Stuart Batchelor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Phil Kirchmeier Subject: Re: Bell Bottoms Being an ex-squid the story goes... The bell bottoms represent an era when sailors had to go aloft, the wide flares made it easy to pull the trouser bottom over the knee to have a better grip with ones legs on the lines or yards. While were at it the whole uniform is steeped in traditions. Some that I recall are: the thirteen buttons on the front flap represent each original colony. Though, when the spirits flowed, I've heard it said that the flap was really a bib for a certain arch-rival branch of the US armed forces (This sort of observation usually followed a rather, um, bar clearing "discussion" on the matter which would be the envy of a Hollywood war movie or western and sure to bring the shore patrol a-thumpin')... but I digress.... The black kerchief is in memory of the USS Main (supposedly), the jumper flap also harks back to another era, when sailors used tar to keep their hair pulled back in a sort of greasy kid stuff pony tail. I don't recall what the two stars or the piping represent, perhaps another will pick up the post... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: Bell Bottoms From: Fkbrown90 >> I remember hearing (a long LONG time ago) that the flared leg made it easier to slip out of them if a sailor were to fall overboard, and thus quickly be rid of the heavy wool water-soaked trousers that might impede swimming. If that were true, then why were the chiefs' and the officers' uniforms not so designed? << Actually, clothes make surprisingly good floatation devices. Take one shoe off, pull the lace and ditch the shoe, ditto w/ the other; take the pants off, use the laces to tie the legs closed at the bottom, and you can inflate the pants and tie the top w/ your web belt, nice little float, just keep it wet. Turn your shirt around, and you can blow air into it and inflate that too. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "lamkeel" Subject: Black Swans and an update! Hi to you all. Just to prove that I'm still kicking! Seeing the mention in an earlier posting about Black Swan Class Sloops, I have just completed an article for a future Marine Modelling International on just that subject. The main drawing will again be HMS Starling, but others in the class will be covered by photographs. (That set of five large sheets is still going at the reduced price of £45.00). Further to that I (we) are still working hard on the drawings for "Allied Coastal Forces of WW 2" Volume 3. At last I can see light at the end of the tunnel. I'm working on the last few drawings - Camper and Nickolsons designs, and the Paxman Ricardo diesel engine. All my efforts on the British Power Boat designs have been completed, (Today) and there is much new information, never previously seen. These have been gathered in from a visit to the late George Selman, their wartime Chief Designer who I met in 1994' ish. He provided me with a number of original drawings and a huge collection of wartime microfiche. I have managed to have these read by a fellow SMML and many have been redrawn. There are a number of interesting projects to be seen that were never put into production. Unfortunately all the remaining C/F designers - Whites, Thorneycroft, British Power Boats and C & N's have to be gathered together in this final volume as costs have to be held is check, so space will be tight. But other volumes, following on such as Main Engines and the reprint of original wartime Gunnery Manuals are being considered. The whys and wherefor's of Coastal Forces gunnery and equipment. "Hosepiping", and the theory of Power Operated Gun Mountings etc (By me anyway). I have the information, all I need to do is to convince the publishers! We hope to complete all the drawings for Volume 3 by early 2004. Yours "Aye" John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "bert" Subject: Re: R.N.Vehicles & Bell Bottoms Phil from Bert, The vehicles were the standard W.D. types austin K6, bedfords, etc. The only special one that I can recall was one for transporting topedoes, I believe it was an adaptation of the "Queen Mary" type aircraft trailer, Someone will no doubt know better! and you may get more info on the subject, through the site. Yours Aye bert (TaT). EOM. 2nd subject To Fkbrown, I do not know about the U.S. navy rig, but in the R.N. the reason we were given for "bell bottoms" was that if the end of the trouser leg was flared, if caught on small obstructions on the deck it would slip off and not trip up the wearer. this would explain why the difference between Officers and Chiefs trousers as they would not be expected to rush around handling tackle etc in the course of their work! This would only apply to "special sea duty men" as being visible when entering or leaving harbour they would be in "rig of the day" most others would be in No8's (overalls) Unless of course somebody knows better. Yours Aye (TaT). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "William B Luther" Subject: Navy "Bell Bottoms"? I can only speak from my experience with the US Navy, but, Navy issue "Bell Bottoms" aren't. They are what some would call a "shotgun" cut, that is, while they have no flare at the bottom, they likewise have no taper. The legs are the same diameter at the bottom as at the thigh. This is not to say you have never seen a sailor in bellbottoms, they just weren't issued by the Navy, but rather bought from an outside vender. Even though they weren't official issue, I never saw anyone get gigged for wearing them, even during inspections. As for why the large diameter legs in the first place? My understanding is it was because it made it easier to roll up the cuffs while swabbing the deck or other activities involving allot of water on deck. Bill Luther USS Chicago CG-!!, '70-'72 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "James Kloek" Subject: ROCON is a Week Away ROCON 24, the annual Rochester, NY IPMS contest and show will be Sunday, September 21, at the 40 & 8 Club, 933 University Ave. in Rochester. Its going to be another good contest, we have sold out our vendor tables and have lots of goodies for our raffle. The quality of the ship entries is usually quite good. We draw people from upstate New York, southern Ontario, northern Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio, so any SMMLies in the area are welcome to come and enter some models. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Keith Butterley" Subject: AOTS HMS Belfast revised edition released and New books from Classic Warships Hi all, A newly published revised edition of this much sought after book. Contains more than 300 perspective and three-view drawings, with in depth descriptive keys of every detail of the ship. A complete anatomy of the ship in words, photographs and drawings. Canada $66CDN + shipping USA & Intl $44US + shipping See the Anatomy of the Ship page for full details. I am now taking orders for the two new books from Classic Warships: Classic Warships #19 Bismarck Canada $27CDN + shipping USA & Intl $18US + shipping Classic Warships #20 HMS Hood Canada $27CDN + shipping USA & Intl $18US + shipping Happy modeling Keith Butterley http://www.warshipbooks.com Vancouver site of the 2010 winter Olympics ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume