Subject: SMML VOL 2328
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:02:58 +1000

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MODELLERS INDEX

1: Re: epaulettes
2: Re: Victory At Sea Available on DVD
3: Re: Epaulettes
4: Re: epaulettes
5: Re: Victory at Sea
6: Re: Epaulettes
7: Re: US Navy Uniforms
8: Re: USS Susan B. Anthony
9: Re: US NAVY UNIFORMS
10: Re: Epaulettes
11: L'Arsenal BEARN

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MODELLERS

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1)
From: "John REDMAN"
Subject: Re: epaulettes

 I may have this wrong but IIRC in the Royal Navy of ca. 1812, one epaulette on the left shoulder denoted a Commander, one on the right a post captain of fewer than three years' seniority, and two a senior post captain.

 My source though is C S Forester...who may or may not be reliable.
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2)
From: Lawman555
Subject: Re: Victory At Sea Available on DVD

 Gentlemen;

 I read with interest the mention of the DVD Victory at Sea series. Are they available somewhere other than overstock.com?

 Also, I had inquired last year, or so, about two other movies "Thunder Afloat" and "Submarine Command". Someone from Australia replied that it was shown down under. So far, no mention of it anywhere stateside. Is anyone aware of these two movies and how to get a copy of them?

 Although it does not directly fit into the purvue of the SMML site; it does because of the members interest.  I hope this does not offend anyone. If so, I appologize. My computer crashed and I lost the previous info on the movies. I was hoping to obtain better pictures of the Submarine Chasers to recreate my historically accurate model.

 If this rings a bell with anyone, please contact me off-line.

 Thanks again to all

 Jim Myers
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3)
From: "Ken Goldman"
Subject: Re: Epaulettes

 Since Patrick O'Brian made such a specific point about Royal Navy epaulettes in the Napoleonic period, I would suspect that he knew what he was talking about. He emphasizes this on page 396 of POST CAPTAIN when the Admiralty hall-porter transfers Jack Aubrey's epaulette from his left shoulder to his right upon Jack's making Post Captain.

 Ken Goldman
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4)
From: Roland Mar
Subject: Re: epaulettes

 To: Fkbrown90

 If my memory has not been totally scrambled, off of the top of my head I believe that in the Royal Navy from the late 1600's through at least the Napoleonic wars, officers ranks were designated as follows:

 Lieutenant: no epaulettes on an officers coat.
 Master and Commander: single epaulette on left side
 Post Captain of less than 3 years seniority: single epaulette on right side.
 Post Captain of more than 3 years seniority: two epaulettes.

 They did not have ensigns, LT(jg)'s, or LT. Commanders. Advancement once you made Post Captain was by seniority. Admirals of various flavors had much fancier uniforms and epaulettes. Midshipmen had different uniforms, although a senior midshipman or especially a Passed Midshipman [had passed his exams but had not yet received his commission from their Lordships of the Admiralty] could be employed in duties that normally would belong to a Lieutenant.

 The same uniforms were worn afloat, ashore, or on half-pay awaiting assignment to duties.

 Now you realize that you have gotten me thinking about this and I will have to immerse myself in C.S. Forrester to get my Horatio Hornblower fix. <grin>.

 Roland Mar
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5)
From: "Stephen Varhegyi"
Subject: Re: Victory at Sea

 I've got the whole video series. Great footage but the music sucks. It would be more at home as the soundtrack to a corny western. Admittedly this is a 50's era series but I'm afraid to say the music really put me off.

 What's worse I paid $A50 for what I thought was a bargain the other week. A five part series entitled "World War II" directed by Frank Capra. To my great disappointment, this consisted of a set of war era US Defence Department propaganda films, "Why we fight". Hardly what you would call a factual account of the events leading up to and the battles of world war II. The sort of thing Goebbels would would have produced if he was a Yank.

 I prefer the more British approach when it comes to war documentaries. If this series was done by the poms it would have been much more entertaining. For example, take the fantastic D-Day to VE day documentary produced for the 50th anniversary of the Normandy invasion. A factual account, well researched, very comprehensive and without the embellishments.

 Quite a few years ago (probably back in the late 60's), I remember a fantastic British series which appeared on TV here in Australia entitled "the World at War". This was a great series. I haven't seen this around on video though.

 When it comes to war feature films the Germans take the cake. "Das Boot" and "Stalingrad" are absolute classics.

 Unfortunately Hollywood usually has to stuff up a good war movie by turning it into a chick flick. "A love triangle set amongst the war torn events of WWII etc." Take Pearl Harbour, Enemy at the Gates, Midway with Charlton Heston etc. I reckon despite the lack of special affects Tora, Tora, Tora craps all over Pearl Harbour as a movie.

 Then U-451 where the yanks single handedly broke the enigma code and you had a u-boat being attacked mid-Atlantic by a P-51D in 1942. And even Private Ryan where we had those mythological beasts called "P-51 Tank Busters" for heavens sake. Who are the technical advisers for these movies? Or more to the point, do the directors even listen to them. If they couldn't lay their hands on a Typhoon/ Tempest, surely there are airworthy P-47s around. Shame on you Speilberg.

 The advent of digital technology and computer graphics opens the door to a whole range of possibilities. How would this be. The story of Erich Hartmann. The highest scoring fighter ace of all time. Sort of a "Reach for the Sky" for Luftwaffe buffs. Then again he's not American is he. Alas, a story about a Third Reich war hero would be in bad taste. But what a story it would make. I've got his biography.

 His father was a doctor who had gone to China to escape the economic hardships in Germany. So, much of Erich' childhood years were spent in China. Then there are the war years, where he ended up scoring 352 air victories on the eastern front. Then there's his 10 years in the Soviet Gulag, after the Americans handed him over to the Russians. Then there's the post war years where he became a high ranking officer in the West German Airforce. Even receiving accolades from his former enemy allied pilots and developing a warm comeraderie. This would be a great story. Hard to get by the Hollywood heirarchy though.

 More's the pity.

 Steve
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6)
From: "Fred"
Subject: Re: Epaulettes

 Finally a question I can answer.

 In the Royal Navy of that period a Post Captain wearing only one signified that he had less than three years seniority. Once he passed three years he wore two.

 Fred Nahs
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7)
From: "Mike Leonard"
Subject: Re: US Navy Uniforms

 John said -

>> I'd much prefer my old all-cotton dungarees to the new ones with a polyester blend when fighting shipboard fires! What shoreside nimrod came up with THAT one?!! True, they probably look better at inspections, but.... <<

 Probably the same sandcrab - I mean genius - who decided that Summer Whites should be 100% POLYESTER! I sure enjoyed wearing those to the CVN 76 commissioning in July, when it was about 100F in the shade.

 MWL
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8)
From: Bob Reddy
Subject: Re: USS Susan B. Anthony

 Ken,

 There is a port bow photo of Susan B. Anthony AP 72, on page 8 of Norman Friedman's "Amphibious Ships and Craft"
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9)
From: "Matthew Prager"
Subject: Re: US NAVY UNIFORMS

 I miss the dungaree uniform too, but we don't wear the utilities underway - we wear blue coveralls (fire retardant for the engineers), I rarely wear khakis underway. The DC parties dress out in Fire Fighting Ensembles (FFEs) to fight a fire.

 Matt Prager
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10)
From: "geoff-smith"
Subject: Re: Epaulettes

>> On CONSTITUTION's Turnaround Cruise last Saturday the captain was a Commander (I am sure), the second in command was a Lieutenant (I think). Their ceremonial uniforms differed only by the epaulettes, insofar as I could make out. <<

 Presumably ceremonial uniform applicable to the individuals' ranks rather than "period" uniform.

>> I have been on CONSTITUTION several times in the past, and the uniforms were the same each time, regardless of the rank, one epaulette for the executive officer and two for the captain. And I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that epaulettes were worn only by officers attached to an active sea-going vessel, not by those who were shore based. I don't have a clue as to the insignias of rank at the time. <<

 Not sure on all myself, however, only a Post Captain wore two epaulettes. Not sure whether the rank below was Captain or Commander, but only one epaulette was worn. It may be that the rank of Post Captain was only applied to a sea-going Captain, as opposed to captain.

>> My guess is that the Royal Navy was much the same in those days. <<

 Obviously not.

 Geoff
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11)
From: AZJOE1445
Subject: L'Arsenal BEARN

 I am currently building the BEARN and I have a few questions about the flight deck that I hope some list members can help me with. The instructions state that the flight deck should be painted natural wood. Does anyone know what type of wood the deck was constructed of and did the planks run bow to stern or port to starboard? Secondly what condition was the deck kept in? For example, was it regularly scoured or would there have been a large accumulation of skid marks and oil stains on the deck?

 Thanks for any help I can be given regarding these questions.

 Joe Kreutz
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 http://smmlonline.com

 Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at:

 http://apma.org.au/
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