Subject: SMML VOL 2367 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:26:05 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Minesweepers - Intervals between ships while sweeping? 2: Re: ASDIC "blind time" 3: Re: Amy Hoffman and Portland area hobby shops 4: Minesweepers 5: Re: Battle of Feline Bay 6: Borodinos' Colour 7: Help with guns - Joe Hinds 8: Re: Battle of Feline Bay 9: minesweepers and colors 10: Japanese A220 Battleship 11: RAN AA or air gunnery training models 12: Difference between Argentina and Sheffield 13: Re: 1/72 Hunley Instructions 14: Shanghai Dragon USS Normandy 15: Color Cops Beware? 16: Blue Water Navy 17: Re: Help with guns 18: Re: Things to do in the Netherlands 19: Re: Help With Guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: 1/200 Nichimo Yamato 2: Battleships&Knights November update ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Minesweepers - Intervals between ships while sweeping? >> So, can anyone here tell me whether there was a standard interval - or not? Tell me what a standard interval would have been? Or steer me in the direction of a source? << The book you want is *Allied Minesweeping in WWII* by Peter Elliot which I got from the Naval Institute many years ago. There is one copy currently on ABE for $35. ISBN: 0870219049 I can't get to my copy now or I would try to answer the questions directly. However, the answer is - different formation shapes and intervals - it depends on the types of mines being swept. *Warship International* also had an article a few years ago on the sweeping the North Sea Mine Barrage in WWI. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Jim McNeil" Subject: Re: ASDIC "blind time" As John Durham said an escort would aquire a target and run down on the sub following the asdic operators directions. As the escort got closer to the sub the return from the target would get quicker and quicker. When the signal became "instantainious" the escort would be "over "the target and would roll depth charges off the stern and fire other charges to each side with the "throwers"(seen in many war movies). This would produce the "pattern", hopefuly around the sub. If the Captain guessed the depth and the timing right and luck was with them, maybe close enough to crush or damage the sub. When the depth charges exploded they created a great deal of sound and air bubbles in the water and this greatly affected the asdic by creating a lot of false returns. (Even today it is or was a common trick for an SSN to follow another SSN or SSBN by trailing in the wake (baffles) of the first sub) They had to wait a couple of minutes for the disturbance to settle down. There is also a blind spot behind the ship caused by the disturbance of the wake of the ship causing a lot of "noise". The instantainious return would occur when the sub was within about 100 yards, so they came up with the "hedgehog", which consisted of about 20 spigot mortar bombs mounted to fire ahead of the escort (about 200 yards?). They were fused to explode on contact with the sub. The first ones were fixed but later they were able to aim them to a limited extent. Later they came up with the Limbo and squid mortars which fired a depth charge ahead of the escort. The examples I have seen had a triple barrel and wold fire three at a time. The Hedgehog used only a small charge but Limbo and Squid fired an actual depth charge. These devices allowed the captain to shoot at the sub while they still had an accurate fix on the distance and direction to the sub. Jim McNeil at Slackers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: Amy Hoffman and Portland area hobby shops Amy, I don't live in Portland, but travel there periodically, in fact will be there for a week starting Tuesday. I have found Bridgetown Hobbies to be very well stocked and very helpful in getting things they may not have in stock. Also, they host the local IPMS chapter meetings. I have attended a couple of the meetings as a guest and they made me feel very welcome. Two or three of the members who attend regularly are women, skilled car modelers if I remember correctly. If you want to get more deeply involved with ship modeling, go see the Oregon Maritime Center and Museum aboard the sternwheel steamer Portland, tied up on the Willamette River in downtown Portland. Several of their members are ship modelers, and all great people. I learned a lot about modeling from their curator, Ed Neubauer. If you ask, they will put you in touch with him. Gary Kingzett PS: To Don MacDonald. How can I get in touch with you while I am in Portland? I'd like to see some of that rust. If you would like to talk to me, I'll be staying at the Oxford Suites in Gladstone. Leave a message, I'll get back to you. G ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Subject: Minesweepers The Association of Minemen can help you. They have a display on the Yorktown in Charleston and are very friendly folk. My dad served on the USS Terror in WWII and went on to become a top cilivian top in mine warfare. Here's the link: http://home.triad.rr.com/aom/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: Re: Battle of Feline Bay At the risk of displaying an intemperate disposition towards God's creatures great and small, and having re-enacted this battle more than a few times in the past, I rather suspect that the only certain solution is to convert said invaders into fur linings for gloves or slippers! :-) Kind regards Tony (slow learner and owner of two aging moggies) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Rule" Subject: Borodinos' Colour Prompted by your question, Darius, I looked at several photos of members of the Borodino class early in their careers. All seemed to be sporting black hulls. Although there is a slight tonal change showing in some of the photos part way between the waterline and the foredeck, nothing makes me think there is a different colour involved. Can you suggest the location of a photo which has led to the idea of two colours. Sincerely, John Rule ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Daniel Taylor" Subject: Help with guns - Joe Hinds Dear Joe, Heard your dilema and I think I can help. There is a model tank company in Scotland called Milicast. The owner is a man called Tom Welsh and he has two products that I think will help. One of his newer kits is the Soviet IS3 tank in 1/76, and I am practically sure it comes armed with 12.7mm guns. Being cottage industry (but at the pinnacle of the trade) he will more than likely produce the guns seperately without being extortionate. Another offering within his range are turned brass gun barrels, also to 1/76 scale but very suitable to 1/72. Within that he does .50 calibre barrels. I should also note that he does German 2cm and 37mm guns for anyone contemplating the Revell U-Boat. All are reasonably priced. Contact details for Milicast are: milicastmodels@hotmail.com Milicast Models 9 Rannoch Street Glasgow Scotland G44 4DF Tel: (+44)141 633 1400 There is also a website but I don't have a note of it. Try putting Milicast & tanks in a browser. There has been a big show in the UK this weekend, so early Monday may not be a good time to call. Good luck with the G5. It's one I fancy doing one day, if only I could find a few more hours inthe day. Dan Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "raymond guy" Subject: Re: Battle of Feline Bay Hi Amy. Thanks for the response. The photo-etch on the Belfast is proceeding slowly. It is a matter of trial and error,lots of error and plenty of trial, however what has been applied looks very smart congrats due to John and his team at WEM on the quality of the PE even if he is an outright sadist!! I have been attaching the PE along the lines of your suggestion which is the most logical method and painting the camo etc as I go along. Attaching PE to a flat surface is fairly straightforward I have been positioning the part near to its point of attachment and then sliding it into position on the superglue. The vertical ladders ,due to their small size,seem to have a life of their own and leap into space at the slightest movement in the meantime the application of superglue has hardened and lost it's adhesiveness so one starts all over again.The confidence factor improves with each part glued into position and the appearance of the model is changing from pieces of stubby plastic into something approaching reality. As for those damm cats ,well the youngest one has now calmed down considerably but he is influenced and takes his lead from the big blue who is the calculating version of Garfield and all the other recalcitrants rolled into one , in fact I have changed his name from Misty to Rasputin which seems far more appropriate( my better half says I am being vindictive towards her baby!). Fortunately the shipyard is a separate room from the rest of the house so it is easy enough to isolate it from the rampaging felines, and it also allows me to leave everything in situ until the next session.The sign on the door says "No cats allowed heat seeking guided de-worming pills activated."! Good luck with your projects and happy modelling. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: ED LARYEH Subject: minesweepers and colors Minsweeping intervals: For WWII sweeping moored mines with an Oropesa sweep the lead sweeper streamed a wire with a "kite" on theend. the kite carried a little flag so that the next sweeper in line could stay behind it (and remain in "safe" water) The sweep lenght could vary , but would normally be 100-300 yards/meters. Sweeping influence (magnetic) mines used an electric field and the "safe" distance concept was not really operable (the electric cable was towed directly astern). So much for the technical side. When I taught shiphandlers and helmsmen about steering during underway replenishment I used 1:1200 models to illustrate how important careful control was. I put two models down with a toothpick between them marked with colored distance flags (tiny-tiny bits of colored paper). the distance beteen the ships was 120 feet / 35 meters. the I put another model at the scale distance of 850 yards/meters going the other way. This represented the turning radius of the ship. It was a long distance, even at 1:1200 scale. The point here is really that you dont have to go overboard on actual distances. place your models far enough apart to illustrate the concept, and close enough so that they do not get lost in the vast space of your imagined ocean. Once you think it looks good, leave it there. Missouti colors. For many years I used to mix colors to match paint chips and photos. I always wanted (and still do) to be very accurate with the colors. Fortunately, today you can buy Colourcoats enamels which match perfectly and avoid all the fuss of mixing and the occassional? inaccuracies of adding one too many drops of a dark color. If you are into water based paints rather than enamels, floquil/polly-s has a set of US colors which also matches very well. (there is a problem for some of us in that the manufacturer will not ship outside the USA). I haven't mixed a color since WEM started carrying colourcoats. I recommend you follow the same route. (unless you actually ENJOY counting drops of paint) Aryeh Wetherhorn Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Martyn Jones" Subject: Japanese A220 Battleship Hello, My name is Martyn Jones and I'm new to this list and could really do with some expert advice. I'm building a 350 scale model of a Japanese battleship known as the A220 or "Dream battleship". It was designed in the 1930s by Kikuo Fujimoto. He died however, and the shp was never built. The A220, which I've named the Suruga, was basically a super super Yamato. Over 900ft long with 12 20" guns and 6 screws. I have a few photos of what she looked like if anyone is interested. Anyway the reason I'm writing is because I'm having difficulty with the deck. I'm converting a 350 scale Yamato, as the two shps were very similar in design. However the Suruga wold have had 3 aircraft catapults to the Yamato's 2. This is where I'm having trouble working out where the 3rd catapult would have gone and how the deck would have looked. I'd be very greatful for any help, and if anyone would like me to e-mail a picture of the deck layout just e-mail me. Ive enclosed a picture of the aft deck if anyone has any suggestions perhaps Thanks Martyn Jones ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ron Crawford Subject: RAN AA or air gunnery training models Can anyone help me track down examples of 1/200 scale model aircraft that were furnished to RN and ANZAC forces during WWII as parts of a gunnery training kit? The models were white metal, rsather basic in detail but quite accurate in scale and outline, and featured a type identification such as "Oscar" stamped in block letters underneath. They were typically sprayed a matte gray. The accompanying kit seemed designed for estimating range and deflection. Ron Crawford ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Difference between Argentina and Sheffield Hello fellow modellers, remember the thread about how many models you had in your shelves that waited to be taken out of the box. Well, I have accumulated the one or other over the last few years. I currently have a Revell Sheffield on my desk, and while cleaning up around my work table I found a second box of the same modell. Now the instruction sheet shows three versions possible: Sheffield, Argentina and Conventry. I was thinking of doing a Sheffield (or Coventry) and a Argentina. Revell differs only in the aft structure and the addition of exocet launchers to Argentina. Does anyone know of other differences? (e.g. helicopters, radar, main gun, anything that'll make it more interesting to build both versions ... Thanks a bunch in advance Werner ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Rui Francisco Matos" Subject: Re: 1/72 Hunley Instructions Hello Ed! I'll scan them and send it to you tomorrow! If you prefer a xerox copy, that could be arranged too, only it will take longer for you to get your hands on them! Modeling Regards, Rui Matos (aka Skipper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Michael McMurtrey Subject: Shanghai Dragon USS Normandy I picked up a couple of these kits (kit number 7023) at a Hobby Lobby over the weekend. I note that they contain extra parts which are marked 'not for use.' The kit purports to represent CG-52 Bunker Hill through CG-60 Normandy, so I presume these extra parts are for earlier/later versions of the Ticonderoga class? I know this kit has been released under several different ship names, but I have not seen them. Does anyone out there have copies of the instruction sheets for these other Ticonderoga-class kits they would be willing to share with me? Michael McMurtrey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Color Cops Beware? In speaking with the owner of a local hobby shop (actually the only one in about 20 miles or so), I learned something kind of new about paints. He is a retired aircraft painter and supervisor from our local airbase, as well as a really great aircraft modeler. He laughed long and hard when I described some of the online discussions on accurate paint, scale effect, etc. He is very active in IPMS and says that in his experience with aircraft paint, the FS 595 color starts to weather, degrade, etc. 24 hours after drying time. Our eyes can't see it, but it does start the process. Ergo, he said that factor, as well as local sunlight intensity, prevailing local weather, degree of scrubbing and washing, quality of the paints supplied, the supplier mix, make it almost impossible to give a 100-percent accurate color description. FS 595 colors were always used at his airbase, and even then, paint varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. He actually used the real Govt issue FS 595 paints on his A/C models, took half pints with him, and still had IPMS judges at meets tell him his colors were wrong. The eye of the beholder is soooooo subjective. The idea of self-appointed Color Cops or Paint Police online really had him in stitches. He also suggested looking at the Pantone Matching System charts for a quick education on the variations in color tone, etc. on a given color. Gray is gray; therefore, haze gray is always equal to haze gray, but some haze grays are more equal than others. FWIW, Gene Katz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Melvinsmith29@aol.com Subject: Blue Water Navy Has anyone heard of BWN doing any new releases. The last thing I saw from them was a Sea Wolf? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Gary Subject: Re: Help with guns You can try http://www.aeroclub-models.com/ they make excellent 1/72 metal guns. i have ordred from them recently and their response time is quite fast. HTH Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "johnny.geldhof17" Subject: Re: Things to do in the Netherlands hello, Below you'll find the webspace of the navy museum of Rotterdam: http://www.maritiemmuseum.nl/ On this you'll also find a link to their bookstore and modelshop. you can take a tour into the virtual museum. Regards, KMC Johnny Geldhof (Belgian Navy www.royalnavy-sectionbelge.tk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Help With Guns Joe Hinds wrote asking: >> I have two 1/72 kit models of the Soviet, TUPOLEV G-5, torpedo boat and I need Guns. << You need to use the Aeroclub Degtyarev 7.62mm in a pinch, sold in a pack of two; their number is G023, while Hannants list it as their ABG023, and they sell for about $1.50 for the pair. These can be obtained from either Hannants or Aeroclub directly, who can be contacted at: aeromail@compuserve.com This weapon is close in appearance to the larger DShK & DShKM 12.7 weapon you might be looking for. The Degtyarev was known as the RPD (Ruchnoy Pulemet Degtyarova - Degtyarov Light MG) was one of the first weapons designed to fire a new, intermediate cartridge 7.62x39mm, and was a development of the earlier Degtyarov machine guns, tracing its ancestry to the DP-1927 LMG. At: http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg14-e.htm Also the Degtyarev DP or DPM pan-fed weapon can be seen at: http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg34-e.htm The DShK & DShKM "12.7mm Krupnocalibernyj Pulemet Degtyareva-Shpagina, DShK" (Degtyarev-Shpagin, large caliber). The DShK was used through WW2 as an anti-aircraft weapon, and also as an heavy infantry support gun. It also had been used on some heavy soviet tanks as a roof-mounted AA-gun. http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg03-e.htm The only source for such weapons would be to rob these from some Russian tank models, an expensive portion just to get the AAA weapons. I would also check your references quite closely, as the Gorjunov SGM "7.62mm mounted machine gun system Gorjunov", or SG-43 in short, could also be the weapon that you are looking for, instead of the DShK. http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg35-e.htm Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ron Crawford Subject: Re: 1/200 Nichimo Yamato I've lost track of who wanted one of the Nichimo "Yamato" kits, but I have one I am very unlikely ever to build. It must be a very early production, as I purchased it from the old Squadron Shop store in Detroit sometime around 1971-72. Still in the original box. Those kits are big and heavy. Probably something best handled by personal pickup. Ron Please contact me off list if interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Stefano Subject: Battleships&Knights November update Hello everyone, this is the first notice here about the (more or less) montly updates of my site, Battleships&Knights (http://members.xoom.it/stefsap). Your feedbacks will drive further postings here. This upate is dedicated to Italian Navy Museum of La Spezia: new ship pictures: Floating drydock with a Montecuccoli class cruiser inside; IRN Orsa Torpedoboat IRN Grecale Destroyer RN Barbarigo sub, WWI The entire section has been improved, as full resolution pictures (sometimes not top quality, due to space/bandwidth cons), plus some new pictures has been uploaded for the already presented ships, too: IRN Roma BB RM Battlecruiser project 1930 U-boote bunker RN Leonardo da Vinci BB MM Montecuccoli post WWII Cruiser RN Dante Alighieri BB RM Hybrid carrier cruise project 1925 RM Carrier project 1928 RN Regina Margherita pre dreadnought RN Garibaldi armoured cruiser IRM Da Recco destroyer Stefano ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume