Subject: SMML VOL 2373 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:23:22 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Possible Decal Printer 2: Re: Paddle Steamer Kits 3: Re: Modern RAN Colours 4: Re: Master and Commander ships 5: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes 6: Re: Possible Decal Printers 7: Hawaiian Pilot 8: Master and Commander 9: Re: Master and Commander ships 10: Re: Master and Commander 11: Re: Master and Commander 12: Re: Master & Commander 13: Re: MASTER AND COMMANDER 14: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint scheme 15: Re: paddle steamer kits -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: BRADFORD CHAUCER Subject: Re: Possible Decal Printer >> The only reliable decal printer was the ALPS which used a dye sublimation method of printing. Ink jets use aqueous inks that bead up on decal paper blanks and in any case are not UV light fast. << Actually the basic ALPS uses a wax ink in ribon form to print colors, white, metalics and clear overlay. A Dye Syb kit is available for the 5000 and one or two other models but most of the decal processes don't use it. The wax works better. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: William Swan Subject: Re: Paddle Steamer Kits The Zvezda Sirius kit is indeed a repop of the Heller Occident Kit. There were in fact three ships in this series. The English Brigantine, the Porquois Pas and the Occident. All utilized shared sprues. The hulls were modified with add on sprues in the appropriate places (such as the screw propeller in the PP and the paddle wheels in the Occident. The Brigantine, being a sail power only ship, substituted wood grained solid panels on the major hull moldings. The model of the Occident was claimed by Heller to be essentially a duplicate of the prototype Sirius but that exact plans were no longer available. You may be interested to note that Heller also did 1/400 models of the Occ. and PP as well as the 1/100s that have been repopped by Zvezda. The Sirius class of vessel were among the first regularly scheduled steam vessels to engage in the transatlantic trade which is why they are significant. William Swan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Modern RAN Colours Hi Andrew, First, here is information on modern RAN weatherworks paint, from Michael Brown who has researched the subject extensively: "1949? to date: The exact dates of changeover are not known as no records can be found but contemporary writing suggests that the RAN were a different shade of grey to the RN in the Korean War. The colour has been the same from about 1949 when BS381C #631 Light Grey, now known as AS2700 # N42 Storm Grey was adopted. The RAN have for some time been using a low solar absorbing paint which has a gloss level of 15% compared to 90% gloss for the "old" paint. The new paint cuts down the infra red signature. One side effect of new paint is that the colour the eye sees is dependent upon the angle of view eg three ships tied up line astern at the Cruiser Wharf viewed from Harryıs Café De Wheels will appear to the eye to all be slightly different colours when in fact they are the same colour. In an extreme case, if the angle of the ship to the viewer and the angle of the sun are "right", a shipıs stern and bow will appear to be different colours. Second, we matched our paint to an actual sample of Storm Grey that Michael provided us. The fact that it does not seem to match the FFGs you're seeing may be due to the effect that Michael cites. It is, however, an exact match. Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models http://WhiteEnsignModels.com for secure online ordering For the latest news from WEM, Click Here: http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/whats_new1.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Von_Zipper@webtv.net (Bull) Subject: Re: Master and Commander ships Pwesty, I can only answer 1 out of 2. Sat through the credits long enough to find out the English ship is the Tall Ship "HMS" Rose. Understand she is now owned by Fox Studios...more seafaring films to come, maybe? Couple of good websites to see her: http://www.tallshiprose.org http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~jconstan/hmsrose/home.html Bull PS: The French ship "Acheron" I can find no info on, other than a photo on the "Tall Ship Rose" website. Is this a real or "Hollywood" ship? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes Hi Steve, If you don't already have it, you need to get a copy of Warship Pictorial 21: Kriegsmarine Prinz Eugen, from Classic Warships (we have it in stock). There are clear photos of Prinz Eugen entering Brest after the sortie, showing her painted Dunkelgrau 51 on the hull and Hellgrau 50 on the upperworks, and with the false bow and stern waves having been painted out along with the Baltic stripes and the dark bow and stern panels. That is how he would have appeared during the Denmark Strait action. Steel decks were painted Dunkelgrau 2, and wood decks were unpainted. The swastika on the bow was painted out at that time. The funnel cap was painted "aluminumbronze" (use matt aluminium for that colour). Hope this helps. Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models http://WhiteEnsignModels.com for secure online ordering For the latest news from WEM, Click Here: http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/whats_new1.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Mike Petersen" Subject: Re: Possible Decal Printers The ALPS MD-5000 also does gold and silver foil which looks awesome. Makes for some great detailing... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Jimmyjb Subject: Hawaiian Pilot Revell indicates that their model of the Hawaiian Pilot is a Matson Line ship, based on the Marad C-3 configuration. This is confirmed by information in Sawyer & Mitchell's FROM AMERICA TO UNITED STATES: THE HISTORY OF THE LONG-RANGE MERCHANT SHIPBUILDING PROGRAMME OF THE UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION, Part 3. At page 48 Sawyer & Mitchell list the USS Burleigh (APA-95) as the ship that later became Hawaiian Pilot, then Sonoma, being scrapped in 1973. This was a C-3-S-A2 type vessel. The US Maritime Commission mailing list (apparently not an official site) has contradictory information as follows, indicating that the Revell model was NOT the ship id'd on the box and in the instructions. They have her shown under the Oceanic Navigation Company's vessels: SONOMA (#2), 8258 ton C-2 freighter, built Wilmington, NC. 1944 as WHITE SQUALL. Oceanic bought 1947, traded to Matson 1961. Renamed HAWAIIAN PILOT, sold 1962. Became SMITH PILOT, then U.S. PILOT. Scrapped in Taiwan 1970. The following entry in the USMM list is meant to show the lineage of the USS Burleigh: SONOMA (#3), 8445 ton C-3 freighter, built Pascagoula, Miss., 1944 as U.S.S. BURLEIGH (APA-95). Matson bought 1947, transferred to Oceanic 1961. Sold 1970 to Pacific Far East Lines. Resold 1972, renamed MONA. Scrapped in Taiwan 1973. There is no mention of Hawaiian Pilot. From my observation, the Revell model is commensurate with a C-3 ship rather than a C-2 based variant. The confusion perhaps arises from the fact that both vessels were given the name "Sonoma" at one time in their careers. Does anyone know which version is correct? Thanks for any help. Jim Bloom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: aandmblevins@att.net Subject: Master and Commander The ship that played HMS Surprise was HMS Rose slightly reconfigured for the part. A replica of her was built in the huge tank in which Titanic was filmed and mounted on gymbals to simulate the movement of a ship in a high sea. I do not know the name of the other ship, if any. There were models used in some scenes. Al Blevins ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Master and Commander ships The Royal Navy ship (HMS Surprise) sailed by Aubrey (Crowe) is a reproduction 28 gun Royal Navy frigate HMS Rose. I had the chance to visit it when it called at Newport, RI some 20 years ago. It looks great in the film. The "French" ship (American in the novel being drawn on) is a computer generated image of the USS Constitution based upon photos taken when it was under its own "power' during its move several years ago after a long and extensive refit (at least this is what I have gleaned from a number of stories on line and in movie columns). Robert A. Mosher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: tkremer@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Master and Commander >> By the way I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the real names of two the ship used in movie were? << Surprise was the Rose, a replica ship based on original Royal Navy drawings with the modern construction plans drawn by famous small boat designer Phil Bolger (I have a Dovekie, one of his other designs) and built in Lunenberg, NS in the early 70s. Rose will be on display for the next few months at the San Diego Maritime Museum. Tom K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Wressell Subject: Re: Master and Commander HMS Surprise was the Rose which sailed out of Bridgeport, CT for a number of years. Was originally build to resemble a ship of the mid 1700's. She got a bit of a rework for the film but still didn't really look like a Royal Navy ship of the early 1800's. Know nothing about the French frigate, but from the description in the movie sounded she sounded like she was built along the lines of Old Ironsides. John Wressell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Re: Master & Commander The "HMS" ROSE, a replica built in Lunenburg Canada was used. http://www.tallshiprose.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: MASTER AND COMMANDER TO: "Pwesty" The ship used as HMS SURPRISE is a real 1/1 scale replica of a Brit frigate, HMS ROSE. Prior to being bought into the movie business, she was used as a sail training ship, I believe in the Northeast. I heard of her after she was out of that business, sadly, because I would have loved the chance to sail aboard such a vessel. She was used in the A & E miniseries "Horatio Hornblower" as HMS INDEFATIGABLE, and then was sold to the company that made "Master and Commander". It is my understanding that the ship is being held by the company in case there is the demand for a sequel [I vote, Yes!]. I have only read one of the books, HMS SURPRISE, some years ago [and still break up laughing at the scene with the "debauched sloth" whenever I remember it.] so I cannot comment on the film's authenticity to the books. But the first movie was both stirring and the most accurate portrayal of naval warfare and life of the age I have seen. There is an irregular newsletter put out by those who are fans of HMS ROSE that is available here. mailto:newsletter@tallshiprose.org?subject=subscribe and their website is: http://www.tallshiprose.org Hope this helps, Roland Mar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: keith.vokes@exxonmobil.com Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint scheme I would recommend the Steve Wiper book on the Prinz Eugen for all the answers to the paint scheme question. One word of warning however - The colour centre spread is in fact a mirror image - compare the swastika rotations with the photos within the book to see what I mean. Other than that it's first class. Regards, Keith Vokes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Jean-Pierre Coddron" Subject: Re: paddle steamer kits >> Looking at pictures of the 1/100 Zvezda Sirius paddle steamer kit it occurred to me this looks very similar, if not identical to, the Heller Occident/Oriental Star kit. This kit, as well as the actual ship it portrays, have always intrigued me ever since reading a build article in Scale Modeler in 1972 (I think). I have not seen this kit listed in the Heller catalog since the early 70's and was wondering if anyone knows what happened to the Heller kit and if the Zvezda kit are the same? I have not been able to find any history of the actual Occident/Oriental Star (why is it referred to by both names?) either online or in any ship history books. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks much. By the way, I stumbled across the Heller kit in Japan about 10 years ago. The instructions contain a history but are in Japanese! << The kit of the Sirius is the old Heller kit of the Occident. This company issued 3 kits, I think in the '60es, of Occident, Pourquoi Pas? and Brigantine, all 3 based on the same hull. I built the Occident and the Pourquoi Pas? Only the last one may be called an exact replica and is a wonderfull model when built with a little care. The Occident looks very much like the Sirius, but Heller probably wanted to be serious with the Sirius (hem, hem) rather than making a fancy Sirius, rather renamed her the Occident. Most obvious difference with Sirius is the round stern (Occident) whiule Sirius had a fregate style stern, according to my documents. The bow figure was of course different too. I have always regretted not to have bought the Brigantine which was a generic 2-masted terra neuva or commercial ship. So I was pleased when it reappeared under Russian (soviet?) label. Box art had been taken over from Heller, plastic was of the lowest possible quality, and the Heller clear parts sprue had been molded in ... white plastic. I think Heller offered a number of old molds to the Russians: these were: cruiser Aurora, battleship Potemkin, ice-breaker Lenin, all in 1/400, all very fine kits, but the result of poor marketing I guess. All these kits were at some time reissued under Russian label, and the 3 above mentioned sailing ships must have been part of the deal. The Occident is a beautiful and colourful model. My only concern is that the rigging should be well detailed otherwise she looks a little bare above decks. Now if you are looking for a beautiful paddle steamer, look out for the Susquehanna by Imai. Of course this one has become a rarity but old Imai molds are being reissued from time to time by various companies. Regards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes Check out my book on the Prinz Eugen, available thru the vendors listed on the site. Steve @ www.classicwarships.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume