Subject: SMML VOL 2413 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:14:32 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Pre Dreadnought battleships 2 Periscopes for models 3 All I want..... 4 Re Battleships of World War II 5 Pre Dreadnought battleships 6 BWN 7 Carriers 8 U.L.A.D. Type VIIc U-boat decal review 9 Re Pre Dreadnought battleships 10 Revell 1/72 U-Boat 11 Quiz about A/C carriers 12 Aircraft carrier's island 13 Re Pre-Dreadnought Battleships 14 Re Islands on carriers 15 Scale Colour in 1/700 16 hosho 17 PST (AER) 1/72 kit Zis-5 truck with a PG-117 'sea glider' 18 Re Predreadnoughts 19 Addendum to pre-dreadnought battleships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Re 1/72 Revell U-Boat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Julio Pillet" Subject Re Pre Dreadnought battleships >> Are there any good books on early battleships, say 1880-1905? I really like the pre-dreadnoughts and want to learn more about them as well as model them. Great White Fleet, Tushima, English, French, German, etc. I've found several that cover English ships, I want to know about the other navies. << For plans of the Spanish-American war ships, please visit my page at http//www.iespana.es/PlasticLlero2/_sgt/f10000.htm and for data ships, visit http//www.spanamwar.com/ Julio Pillet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject Periscopes for models I would appreciate any leads on finding a vendor for periscopes for model submarines, German style preferred. At this point, scale is not important, but 132 or so would be nice. Thanks. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Ray Cockram Subject All I want..... Hi all, Just a few comments about the available range of ship models for those of us who do not WANT to replicate the USN or the IJN in any scale!! A recent visit to several hobbyshops and even a Toyworld revealed a plethoria of US ships, some IJN and Russian!!!! All well and good if you like that sort of stuff, but what about those of us who wish to model RN subjects? Aside from Sandle Hobbies (good on ya Shane n Lorna) where do we get our fix? Are we supposed to rollover and accept this crude form of cultural hegemony from across the Pacific? No I believe it is time that the manufacturers started considering other subjects and stop letting the bean counters dictate their subjects. I mean do we need five different ship models of the same class (eg the Spruances/Ticonderoga')???? What about some fresh new subjects such as the last Hermes or the fourth Ark Royal, I'll let your own immaginations fill in other worthy subjects. Well happy modelling to you all and my your own desires and dreams come true. One day. Cheers Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Sanartjam@aol.com Subject Re Battleships of World War II Hello Einar, A good (if not perfect) overview of the battleships that served during World War II is the book "Battleships of World War Two An International Encyclopedia," by M.J. Whitley. The two-volume set on Axis and Allied battleships in World War Two by Garzke & Dulin is excellent and more detailed, and there are even more detailed works by Friedman, Raven & Roberts, & Burt on battleships of the U.S. Navy and the Royal Navy. There are a few kits of battleships of World War Two in 1/350, notably by Tamiya and some resin manufacturers, but there is a much greater variety of kits in 1/700. Hope this helps! Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Reid, John (AFIT)" Subject Pre Dreadnought battleships Best book I know on this covering multiple countries is "Battleships of World War I" - Antony Preston, Arms and Armour Press, published 1972. Most of the capital ships built from 1880 on were still extant in 1914 even if in minor roles. 1/1200 plan and elevation drawings are numerous; however, many have deliberate errors, I presume to help detect illegal reproduction. The book was reprinted about 10 years later, but the quality of the photos in the reprint is far worse than in the original printing. Conway's "All the world's Warships 1860-1905" of about the same vintage mostly has elevations only and is briefer about the battleships because it also covers other vessel types. This does have the advantage of being still in print! I think both of these were also listed by the USNI Press in the USA, and second-hand copies do pop up. JJR ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Roy Knight" Subject BWN Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my question, both on list and via E-mail. Everyones help was greatfuly appreciated. Thanks Roy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Ransford Subject Carriers If I may chip in with my two penn'orth, and hope that I haven't missed a piece of the discussion! I would remind all that some carriers, e.g. the IJN Akagi, were specifically designed with the island on the Port side. David Jordan, in his book "Aircraft carriers" published in 2002 by Silverdale books, states that this was to enable carriers with opposite islands to operate closely together without conflict of airspace. This however was not a success!! I await further comment! Ransford (Taff) Rogers (CPO R.N. Rtd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Harold Stockton" Subject U.L.A.D. Type VIIc U-boat decal review I received my ordered copy of Mr. Ulrich Leverenz's, leverenz-berlin@t-online.de , U.L.A.D. Type VIIc, Part One, U-boat decals yesterday and decided to write my out of the package review of the product. My first impressions are that the very thin card placed in the manilla envelop was not substansive enough to ensure against an overly active mail-clerk. Though my sample arrived in perfect order, I could see where problems could arise in some instances. A thicker piece of card, or multiple pieces of what was provided, would solve this potential problem. Though the decal sheet itself is rather smallish, 2.5 inches by 5 inches (65x129mm), as these are only individual markings, which are clearly marked on the decal sheet, they will definitely serve their intended purpose. As I have not as yet to receive my two U-boats from Squadron Shop, I cannot alude as to the properties of the decal's fixing agent of lay-down abilities. Time will tell on that matter. One then comes to the bi-lingual (German and English) instruction sheet, which for some strange reason covers six pages in number, more about my page number question later. Three and one-third pages cover side and frontal views of the conning tower sides or frontal views for the decal placement and are quite adequate for their purposes. Two-thirds of two pages have four in number 1/237.6 scale side views showing the camouflage patterns for the U-82 and U-201. One is instructed to blow up the camouflage patterns supplied by 330% to arrive at the intended full size exact 1/72 scale patterns to apply to either of these intended subjects. I guess that such a solution would work, but having done blow-ups and reductions on plans before, I must caution one from trusting anything less than a fully commercial copying service to such a task because of the variance of the technician and the cost involved. Blueline copies would be the best bet in such instances. Proceeding to my main complaint, and it is a small one, the side and frontal views are all done in varying shades of grey (gray) inks, which is fine for patterns and decal placement. But when one is trying to relate the colors used to the small boxes used as the "color guide" at the bottom of the center pages, a person is left to wonder which box of colored inks is supposed to be which intended color. One expected to ascertain the slight shadal difference between grau / grey (gray) RAL 7000 and hellgrau / light grey (gray) RAL 7001, as they are almost indistinquishable between the small boxes and the drawings. And again, the same problem arises as to differentiating between the two colors of anthrazit-grau / charcoal grey (gray) RAL 7016 and dunkelgrau / dark grey (gray) RAL 9005. The only color that does not come into question is that of schwartz / black RAL 9005. Though it is possible to fiddle around with which color is which in the so-called "color guide", which is matched to their respective Hunbrol or Revell numbers, it could easily have been corrected with a simple extra line of text explaining which color are intended with each drawing. Such amendments to any further printings of the instruction sheets would remove this little quibble. And this now leads to my little problem of the instruction pages numbering only six. Paper prices are not so high as to need to try and scrimp and save the one-half of a sheet of paper that could have been used to further clarify my complaints listed above. Having been in the print business before, the labor cost of cutting that single page was more than the printing cost and paper saved. Though a minor complaint in comparison with what one does receive may sound petty and nit-picking, these comments are intended as being constructive and encouraging to Mr. Leverenz to continue with his ventures in the future, I will buy all of his new items as they are released. And I am going to be the first in line for his implied "Part Two" Type-VIIc decal sheets. The product is very good value for one's money, and we can only hope that Mr. Leverenz will turn his attention to doing some S-100 decals to go with the Revell kit. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject Re Pre Dreadnought battleships Sean Good references on the pre-dreadnought era would include Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905 American Battleships by Max Newhart American Battlaships 1886-1923 by John Reilly and Robert Scheina American Steel Navy by John Alden United States Battleships by Allen Pater Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M. Div., M. S. I. S. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Iain Wyllie Subject Revell 1/72 U-Boat Hi Shane, Got my U-boat kit the other day. Those hull mouldings are really something at first glance but I've found some major errors in the bow area. I thought that something looked wrong and a glance through some photos proved that there was. Out came the builders drawings and the calculator and half an hour later I had the answer. The anchor recess is 4mm too far aft and the sloping row of drain holes above it are 7mm too far forward as well as too big in diameter. Correcting these points puts the aftermost drain hole just forward of the top corner of the anchor recess as it appears in photos. The main row of drain slots are one frame space too far forward so filling in the sloping row and cutting new ones one space aft put them at the correct distance aft of the anchor recess. The torpedo tube doors are 7.5mm too long at the after end so this is easily corrected by scribing a vertical line at this point on the doors and filling and smoothing the unwanted after end. This corrects the relationship between the doors and the anchor recess. The slots between and above the doors, which are inaccurate anyway, can be corrected to match photos or just left alone. The two small wedge shaped items [I don't know their purpose] aft of the upper torpedo tube door need to be replaced one frame space aft and 6mm higher. The above alterations, with the obvious exception of the anchor recess, are required on both sides of the hull. Always the bringer of good news, Iain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Subject Quiz about A/C carriers Most carrier islands are on the starbord side of the ship. Could this be because most pilots, like most everybody else, are right handed and find turning to port easier than turning to starbord? The movement of the arm across the chest and inward toward the body is much easier to control than movement in the opposite direction. Precision movements across the chest are controlled by the forearm and wrist, backed up by the biceps and pectoral muscles. Movement in the opposite direction - from median line outward - involves the entire arm, triceps, deltoids and lats with minimal wrist. For a right hander this means a long curving turn to port corrected with flicks of the right forearm and wrist.. Yeah, thats gotta be it!! Rick Lundin, Bats left, throws left ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From CaptainOD@aol.com Subject Aircraft carrier's island When I was in flight school in Pensacola, this question came up. The answer given to us was (and I am sure the old Chief who was in charge of instruction was properly amused that somebody asked it) that the majority of people are right handed, they tend to turn to the left to reverse or change their direction. That was why most patterns had left turns, that most will turn to the left to change a heading, often if it longer than turning to the right. He lead this "theory" to the standard landing pattern, left hand to base, final, and then a left hand turn out of a bolter or missed approach. Therefore, put the only solid thing that you can hit, the island, to Starboard as most in a natural quick reaction, will turn to the left. Don't know if this is true, or simply a quick answer for a lot of lost Second LT's and Ensigns, but it worked for us. And we learned also not to ask question like this in the future if we wanted to make early happy hour at the club! Bob O'Donovan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From "Michael D'Silva" Subject Re Pre-Dreadnought Battleships Hi Sean, Since you say you already have a reference for British pre-dreadnoughts, I trust you have British Battleships 1889-1904 by R.A. Burt. If not, there are plenty of copies available through abebooks.com. Prices start around $130 US. This is definitely The BEST Reference on British pre-dreadnought battleships. For a more general reference on pre-dreadnought era ships of all navies, try Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905. There is a short history on each class and usually a waterline profile of at least one vessel of each class. It is available on abebook.com from $38 US. Also in the general reference section, look at Tony Gibbons' The Complete Encyclopaedia of Battleships and Battlecruisers A Technical Directory of Capital Ships from 1860 to the Present. This book has over 1000 diagrams mostly in colour with 39 double-spread profiles, technical diagrams and scale drawings. At around $25-$50 US (on Abebooks.com), this book is well worth having. For the Austro-Hungarian Navy try Austro-Hungarian Battleships by Paul Kemp. It might be out of print as I can't find a listing on amazon or abebooks, but keep looking; it's probably the best reference on this smaller navy. The Soviet and Russian navy is comprehensively covered in Russian and Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin. $62.97 at amazon.com German, French and Japanese pre-dreadnoughts is not my area of 'expertise' (trust me, I use the term quite loosely here), but I'm sure other SMMLers have something to contribute on those navies. Good luck in your quest, Michael D'Silva Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re Islands on carriers Ah, what comes from thinking that one's statement about naval architecture comes from one's own opinion than from a more fully stocked and read library. Concerning the hows and whys of where the starboard siting of the aircraft carrier's island comes from written and referenced sources all along. In R.D. Layman's excellent book NAVAL AVIATION IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR; Its Impact And Influence, we have the true history of what became known as the aircraft carrier's "island" and its starboard positioning. Starting on page 104 and following we can read that "Finally, probably as a result of one more plea from Jellicoe after Jutland, the Admiralty on 22 September 1916 authorised construction of a carrier, but on a compromise basis the vessel would not be built from the keel but from an incomplete hull. . . The choice, because her machinery was in a more advanced state of completion, was the 'Conte Rossa' on the stocks at the Beardmore firm. Thus came into being the world's first flight-deck carrier, HMS Argus. "Her construction, however, did not proceed smoothly, Probably as a carry-over from Beardmore's 1912 scheme, the firm's original design featured two parallel superstructures connected over the flight deck. These were about to be emplaced when the experience aboard Furious (serious turbulance from the funnel and superstructure being experienced when trying to land on its rear landing platform, HS) and the wind tunnel tests showed the folly of such a configuration. So it was back to the draughting board for a redesign, featuring a completely flush deck, that delayed the ship's completion until nearly the end of the war." Continuing with the story "An experiment aboard Argus shortly after her completion led to a lasting feature of carrier design - the offset superstructure that came to be known as the 'island'. This configuration had been suggested in 1915 by Hugh Williamson (Lt., a Royal Navy submarine officer, wrote a very prescient paper in March 1912 entitled "The Aeroplane In Use Against Submarines.", HS), . . .carved a crude wooden model of a ship with a starboard island that he showed to John H. Narbeth, the Assistant Director of Naval Construction, and the idea was considered on 25 August 1915 by the Admiralty Airship, Aeroplane, and Seaplane Subcommittee. "Nothing came of the proposal then, but wind tunnel tests in 1918 indicated that an island would not impede deck landings. To confirm this, Narbeth, then involved in the design of the next flight-deck carrier (the vessel that became HMS Eagle, built on the hull of the incomplete Chilian battleship Admirante Cochrane), had a large wood-and-canvas dummy island erected on Argus. Several take-offs and landings proved the feasibility of the concept, after which the structure was removed." Later in the narrative "Williamson wrote later that this location was purely arbitrary, . . . 'Before setting the island on the starboard side of the Eagle', he (Narbeth) stated, 'I inquired of many flying men what would happen, and how would they steer, if on approaching a ship they decided that after all they would not land, and in all cases they said they would turn to the left. This is the reason why the island was placed on the starboard side of the ship.' "Although Narbeth made no mention of it, the choice of turn was dictated by the fact by 1918 all deck flying had been done by aircraft powered by rotary engines. The whirling mass of a rotary imparted torque that tended to nose an aircraft down in a right-hand turn and up in a left-hand turn. An aviator wanting to abort a landing would naturally seek to turn up and away from the ship rather than down and toward it. Thus starboard placement of the island became the convention that has continued to this day." So we arrive at the end of how the starboard island came into being. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From "Adrian and Jules" Subject Scale Colour in 1/700 Hi. I am planning on painting a model in US MS 22 pattern, the model is in 1/700 scale and I am using WEM paints. My question is by what ratio do I add white to the paint to best represent the scale colour effect? Many thanks. Adrian Davies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "bert" Subject hosho Maurice, drawing's avaliable in warships of the Imperial Japanese navy 1869-1945. 1922 portside,1939 starboard side. Flightdeck. 1945 port and starboard views. Also in aircraft carriers of the world (Chesneau) drawings as in 1940. Yours aye (TaT). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From "Harold Stockton" Subject PST (AER) 1/72 kit Zis-5 truck with a PG-117 'sea glider' This kit is of the Zis-5 truck and semi-trailer extension that was intended to carry the supplied PG-117 'sea glider" (speed-boat with a pitle-mounted M/G. The following comments come from NKRModels "As you can see from the box top, a 'sea glider' is a speed boat. The kit consists of the AER (now PST) injection moulded Zis-5 plus a resin 'speed boat' and resin 'extension' for the Zis-5." Can be seen at http//home.wanadoo.nl/henkofholland/AER.htm At the same site there is this comment about the AER "Patrol armoured gunboat." The history of these boats is stated as "In the beginning of the First World War there was a necessity of usage of the rivers for transport and army transportations as in front conditions they were ideal means of communication, especially during an impassability of roads. Therefore since 1915 in Russia organization of river groups and flotillas began. For development of this program in Russia 18 patrol cutters have been booked in the USA on wharf of firm "Mullins and Co", they were ready to 1916. The patrol gunboats had a flat-bottom case with the tunnel and completely armoured deck house. The arm (armament, HS) has consisted of one of 7.62 mm of a machine gun "Maxim" in a rotated turret. Later they have been arm supplementary with Gochkis gun of 37 mm, or DSHK12.5 mm on a stern. Sterling petrol engine capacity 85 h.p. had remote control from a hand wheel. For protection of staff against splinters of the armour the machine-gun turret and deck house from within were pasted over with dense upholstery felt. In the First World War cutters deployed in Pinsk river flotilla, in Reny, Izmail, Tiraspol, Nikolaev. In the beginning of 18th years of 6 trophies patrol cutters were used by Germans as sentry. In November, 1918, receding, Germans have thrown these ships which have got of White Guard gang of ataman Petlyura. These boats participated practically in all operations of Red Army in Civil war. The success of usage of boats spoke their shallow draft that gave exclusive passable ness on shallow water, and also an opportunity of their rail transportation. In conditions of bad roads boats had the greater passable ness, than a field artillery. At the end of the Second World War patrol armoured gunboats participated in operations on the river Amur with Japan." Both are interesting 1/72 scale subjects of Russian small naval forces. And under the 1/144 and 1/400 scale models by this same company there are these interesting additions Warships - Scale 1/144 Kit 14401 - Aviso "Spike" armored boat Kit 14402 - Marine subchaser MO-4 - and 4 pictures built model Kit 14403 - River armored boat BKA-1125 and 3 pictures built model Kit 14404 - Soviet motor torpedo boat "Komsomolets" WW II. (2 pictures built model) Warships - Scale 1/400 Kit 40002 - Mine sweeper "Mine" Kit 40003 - Guard Ship - and 3 pictures built model Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From Gary Kingzett Subject Re Predreadnoughts Sean O'Brien was looking for books about predreadnoughts. I recommend "The Complete Encyclopedia of Battleships" by Tony Gibbons, published by Salamander Books, with a later reprint by Crescent Books. Originally published in 1983. A good overview, with plenty of comparative data between ships, and many renderings of the ships in color, which can be used for color selection and weathering. Gary Kingzett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From "Michael D'Silva" Subject Addendum to pre-dreadnought battleships Hi Sean, Further to my first message, I have just found a copy of Austro-Hungarian Battleships by Paul Kemp on amazon.co.uk. This is in the used section and is available for £20. There is only one copy so buy while you can. Michael D'Silva Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Ian Hanratty" Subject Re 1/72 Revell U-Boat Hi All This is just a short note to say that the company I work for has the new 1/72nd scale Revell U-Boats available for.£34.99 UK sterling. Email me off board if interested. Cheers Ian Hanratty Sales Manager Moredun Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume