Subject: SMML VOL 2419 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:09:16 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 No. 3 on 1/72 Revell U-Boat 2 Re Revell U-Boat 3 AMS and the Quest for "Perfection" 4 Re Tamiya 1/350 5 Re Trumpeter 6 Re Revell U-Boat 7 Trumpeter Nimitz 8 Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation 9 RE Trumpeter 10 Re New Trumpeter Kits 11 Re Trumpeter 12 1/350 Majestic Class Carriers Upcoming Release 13 New York Railway Tugs 14 Re Shizuoka Hobby Show 15 How close is Bourrasque to Wicher? 16 Re Thanks to Steve Wiper 17 Missile colors 18 Re All I want 19 Re French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) 20 Re French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) 21 USS Missouri's Decks ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Task Force Hobbies January and Febuary sale 10% off on all kits. 2 The USS Winston Churchill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Katz, Gene S" Subject No. 3 on 1/72 Revell U-Boat BRAVO ZULU!!! BZ equals Well Done in the US Navy, Sir. George hit it right on the old capstan! Excellent summation of the relationship of so-called glaring MAJOR errors (in the op[inion of one person) to modelling and the real world of shipbuilding and design. The same plans prepared at a Lead Yard for a Class of vessels and given to Follow-On Yards will never, ever result in 100% exact-cloned copies of a lead ship (or Boat if a SS, SSBN, SSN). There are local mods, waivers, deviations, change proposals, SHIPALTS, ORDALTS, CO's preferences and unique requests, and all are executed differently at different yards, and even within the same yard under the hands and eyes of different ship superintendents, craft leads, shipfitters, drafters, etc., and even from one building bay or fitting out dock to another, and depending on the time of year, weather as well. I can share a bunch of stories bearing this out on USN surface combatants (i.e., Targets) and submarines. Modelling is for FUN, did someone out there forget this?? The fact that a fitting or hole is, for the sake of argument, 4 mm offset, or a bracket is welded in lieu of bolting, or guy wires number three in lieu of four because of yard differences doesn't detract from a well-made model. This applies as well to paint, another subject in its own right. My models are built for fun and relaxation after a hard week of dealing with the exingencies of real-world shipbuilding and naval architects, Navy Dept (Admiralty on the other side of the Pond), shipyard endineers and consultants, and hull by hull modifications, conversions, retrofits, upgrades, and the like. Again, BZ George, Carry On Sir!!!! Gene ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re Revell U-Boat "Revell are a large international; company and to my mind would not release a model of any type without first having done their research" Clearly you are not widely acquainted with Revell products, such as the infamous flat bottom ships, the Lionfish sub and the previous Revell Type VII kit, U-99. None of these get particularly high points for accuracy. Admittedly the Revell-Germany manufacturer usually does a better job than the US Revell-Monogram injectors of polystyrene. While I wouldn't call the faults of the new Type VII-C discussed "glaring" (see the Lionfish kit for glaring errors), I think it is reasonable in this forum to point out possible problems with the kit. This will stimulate members to do further research and share results of same. I do agree with your point that modifications are made to ships all the time. The question before us is were such modifications ever made to a Type VII-C? Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Katz, Gene S" Subject FW AMS and the Quest for "Perfection" >> For those that haven't been diagnosed yet, it stands for Advanced Modellers Syndrome. You may recognise some of the symptoms A complete inability to start any project, because You haven't got the right references - particularly that one black and white photo of the rear of the relief tube in a 1937 Estonian Scruggs Wonderplane Mk 1A. You have a resin, kit of your favourite - but you daren't start it 'cos if you do, Tamigawa are bound to release an injection moulded kit - You know that if you start the project, some kind soul is bound to publish a new book with more accurate drawings/information, release a detail set or new decal sheet - just at the stage when it's too late! You can't get hold of a paint chip, all your references (and model club buddies) disagree what the correct shade should be, and Testbrol haven't added those colours to their acrylic range yet. A complete inability to finish any project, because See above... You've sanded that joint 'a thousand' times and it still reappears! The paint and Decals you bought for the project are now so old they are unusable o( With all the hard work, you've just got plain bored with the whole project. You've got the competitions bug and a nice, simple, relaxing pastime has now become a competitive fight for perfection.... (Has anyone noticed that is far easier to judge someone else's models than it is your own?) << Not all of this message came though - can the SMMLies think of anymore? Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From SteveWiper@aol.com Subject Re Tamiya 1/350 >> One thing I never understood was why the Tamiya Fletcher failed (relatively). It was a popular subject. more affordable, and easy to build. I PRESUME that it was that it didn't have the "sexiness" of an battleship or aircraft carrier for the younger market, the playability of an aircraft carrier for the younger market and wasn't bought in compensating large enough numbers by us "older" more "serious" folk - in other words it's our fault !!!!!!!!! << Phil, The Tamiya Fletcher did very well for them, and still is. Tamiya just decided that there were other areas where they would put their money and efforts. Also, they lost their ship pattern maker for 1/350 many years ago. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From SteveWiper@aol.com Subject Re Trumpeter >> I would like you to do a good, detailed, large scale model of the Turbinia. I would probably buy two or three! << Dave, I do not mean to be rude, but your idea is an excellent way to put yourself out of business real fast. When I first started my own business, one of the best pieces of advice given to me was to do what the market wants, not your own favorite projects. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Graeme Martin Subject Re Revell U-Boat Revell U-Boat. Reference the correspondent who thought Revell U-boat had glaring faults. Whether this is factually correct is open to debate. But I was told years ago by a rep from Tamiya that standard saloon cars when reduced down in size to 1/8 or 1/12 etc. don't always look like the real thing so need, sometimes, to be slightly modified in length or height of the hood or trunk areas to look visually correct at that size. So if it is with a model car, that is primarily a toy. The same probably goes for a ship. Moving an anchor recess a few millimetres for strength would be natural, given that it is plastic the manufacturer is working with and not steel. If one expects a mass produced product to be exactly the same as the original in this day and age then he should scratch build, for his standard will always differ from the general popular. Remember that all modelling is open to personal interpretation. The important thing here is that you are building for you and if your enjoying what you build then who cares about an anchor recess being 5 mm out! On the other hand if you're building for competition then you shouldn't be building somebody else's interpretation! Graeme Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject Trumpeter Nimitz The delay in the Trumpeter Nimitz is mostly caused by their pattern makers not sure about the shape of the bow for which they received a great deal of erroneous information. After reading all the whiny complaints I read on this board in particular, I decided to send a set of the hull lines for the Nimitz to Mike at Stevens International so they can get this hull shape done correctly. Stevens is working with Trumpeter to get this series of models to market. Before you people out there start contacting Mike about getting copies of these plans, my agreement with them to supply these, is that no copies be sent out except for the purpose of making the tooling for this model only. So Please do not contact Mike looking for a copy of these plans. W.L. Upshaw The Scale Shipyard www.scaleshipyard.com Largest Selection of quality fiberglass model ship hulls. Now Accepting PayPal for in stock items ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Subject Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation >>..It has been said that surprise in war is what happens when a commander misinterprets something he has seen right along....(snip)....and for that CAPT Burnett is soley and inescapably responsible.<< Joel We already know that as a commander he was responsible and your statement is accordingly trite. In the scenario described he was acting correctly and you have no basis for stating that he could have "seen right along". The question is not what responsibility should be attached to him, but what blame. Maurice ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Allan and Crystal Plumb" Subject RE Trumpeter Steve Wiper wrote >> .........That is why I am now designing kits for Trumpeter Models of China. << More power to them. They're doing a lot of local interest kits, but also some that nobody else has touched for years. I'm fully aware of the economics of new kits, and although there are many I'd love to have in 1/350 (Exeter/42, Hood/41, Kongos not likely from PRC?, etc.), the first thing they have to do is survive. Hey, I have their 1/48 Su-15 and 1/35 Challenger II and Type 89 IFV, none of which are common kits in plastic. I'd rather have a later Nimitz, but I may have to get the 1975 one just for sheer impressiveness. Then we'll build a new room for it! CV-2 is a must have, though. Ummm! Oh well, not like I've built any of my other Trumpeter kits yet, I can wait. -- Allan Plumb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Bill Weckel Subject Re New Trumpeter Kits Here's the top five on my 1/350 wish list 1. IJN Takao class CA 2. USN Independence class CVL 3. USN Portland Class CA 4. IJN Kongo Class BB 5. IJN CV (Akagi, Soryu, Zuikaku, doesn't matter) I'd also buy an HMS Hood, Suffolk, Ajax, Exeter, and any WWII sub from any nation. Oh, and an LCT with lots of armor and cargo would be neat too! -) Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "David N. Lombard" Subject Re Trumpeter >> I would like you to do a good, detailed, large scale model of the Turbinia. I would probably buy two or three! << Oh! Baby! That would be a treat! WEM used to list one, but it doesn't show up anymore... ^( Note to spouse This is why I need to buy kits when I see them, not when I'm ready to build them. -- David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From Bill Weckel Subject 1/350 Majestic Class Carriers Upcoming Release This should make the Aussies happy http//misc.kitreview.com/shipreviews/ ozmodsmajesiticclasspreviewbg_1.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From M Brown Subject New York Railway Tugs A question with a difference. Does anyone know where plans can be found for the tugs operated by the New York Central Railway who used them to take their rail wagon floats across to Manhattan? In particular, tugs numbered 30 to 32 which were built by the Nebo Yacht Basin circa 1923 and served until circa 1968. Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From Gernot Hassenpflug Subject Re Shizuoka Hobby Show Bradford Chaucer wrote >> In case anyone hasn't seen it here is a link to a ten page spread of photos of tamiyacon coverage. Many great ship models http//gustav.x-y.net/exhibition/htm/sze2003(1).html << Great photos indeed, and well worth a look. I don't know if this is the impression overseas, but Tamiyacon it is not - rather, it is the Shizuoka Hobby Show, jointly sponsored by Tamiya (to a large extent) and the other hobby companies resident in Shizuoka City, wherein the Tamiya contest winning entries are also displayed. Club exhibits cover one entire hall, the other hall is reserved for company display, swap tables and so forth. This webpage does not spend any time on new releases. On the 3rd page, http//gustav.x-y.net/exhibition/htm/sze2003(3).html, is mostly ships. The top shows Waterliners, a club who always prepare a special display for the show. The second large photo shows the astonishingly well-donw models of the Ise Modelers Club (I forget the Japanese name), who biuld their ships out of wood using plank on frame construction. Marvellous stuff! In the 5th large photo you see the Mokei Kosaku Tai (Model Construction Group) with my good friend Mr. Ota the rightmost of the 3 gentlemen. They are based in Osaka. Mr. Ota has recently won a model photography prize for his work with the camera. The top of the 4th page shows Sirius Modelers Club exhibit, my club in Kyoto, although I could not make it to Shizuoka last year. The group photo below that one is the Flying Tigers club of Osaka, also widely known in Kansai. The fifth page shows at the top LadyBird and WINDS, also two good clubs in Osaka/Kansai. Further down the page (belofre OWLS) is the Tobanai Kai (`Non-flight' club) of Osaka/Kobe, who each year have a very popular display in San-no-miya, Kobe. The first half of page 9 shows special exhibitions and prize-winners of special categories. Page 10 is the Tamiya Contest winners pagen, no ships this time -) Cheers, Gernot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From "Stephen Allen" Subject How close is Bourrasque to Wicher? Lorna - Best wishes to Shane and I hope that he is back on deck with you soon. Following up on Harold Stockton's suggestions, I was wondering just what changes would be needed to convert a model of ORP Wicher into a French Bourrasque class Torpilleur? I am thinking here about the Mirage 1/400 scale kit rather than 1/700. I have found some useful information, and even a profile illustration, about Bourrasque on line, and the dimensions and tonnage appear identical, but more information about armament, fit and appearance would be useful to determine whether it will be more than a 'paint and flag' conversion. Are there any published sources which would be helpful in this regard, or are there any Marine Nationale experts out there who can help? Anyone who has carried out such a conversion? Jacques Druel, are you out there? Bourrasque or similar would make a marvellous comparison piece with Bearn. Incidentally, for those who want to see a 'virtual' online model of ORP Wicher, the following website will be of interest http//www.glasspalace.fi/services2.html Showing an 'as built' virtual model of the destroyer in question. regards Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "Katz, Gene S" Subject Thanks to Steve Wiper Hey Steve, Is it possible to make some suggestions for consideration by the Trumpeter plastic product line for 2004? Ocean liners (even oddballs as Morro Castle) and troopships/transports of the 20s through 40s in 400, 350, or even 200 scale prehaps. Alaska class, Algerie and other Marine Nationale CAs, CLs, and the Super Destroyers, submarine Surcouf, Isle de France, Liberte. Regia Marina BBs, CAs (other than those done as Zara, Pola, etc.), CLs, DDs, Troopships, Rex. Fleet oilers, Liberties and Victories. Motor Gun/Torpedo Boats of Italy, France, and the UK in 72 or 144. River, Loch class Frigates of the RN/RCN in 144, 200. Just dreaming here... Thanks, Gene ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject Missile colors Hiya gang! I would like to know the color scheme for Talos and Tartar missiles in the early 1960s. I've looked up photos, but have not found a consistent set of colours - white with blue fins, all white, white and red, and even red with yellow fins! (Which I might do to add some color amid all the grey on gray. I would prefer the colors for live missiles over the demo dummies loaded in harbor for show. Thanks, all! Joseph Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From "Ouellette, Lawrence M" Subject Re All I want John Collins wrote >> I agree with Brooks Rowlett on this one. I think he understood both the economic and marketing realities of the situation. The plastic 1/700 waterline ship series was first developed and produced in Japan. I think it is the result of rather astute marketing. This series was developed for Japanese ship modeling public; both serious and "sport" modelers, would respond to a marketing survey that they would prefer Japanese WWII subjects.<<< The key here is that the Japanese companies developed the 1/700 scale ships for their own market in Japan. That is why just about every ship, boat, sub, barge, tugboat, rubber raft, and dingy 8-) that ever served with the Imperial Japanese Navy has been produced as a kit, and only a relatively small sample of non-Japanese ships have been produced. >>>> The same marketing gurus would also recognize that the US is richest market in the world. Hence IJN and USN ships.<<< Unfortunately the US is *not* the richest market in the world for scale models, at least for the Japanese companies; Japan is *by far!* The discussion of 'why don't they make this' has been held many times over in the rec.models.scale newsgroup and some very knowledgeable people who work, or had worked, in the scale model industry explained the marketing realities of Japanese kit manufacturers. Some had the chance to talk to Mr. Tamiya himself and pose these same questions. The vast majority of their market is Japan, not 70-80% of their sales, more like 90-95% (or higher) of their sales are to Japan itself. The US and rest-of-the-world markets (sorry to lump you together) are very small factors in their decisions to produce any kit. Even scale models are a 'small' part of what Tamiya produces. Be very glad that the Chinese companies are marketing to the rest of the world. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http//www.uss-salem.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) In addition to the jistory of the French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) that I recently added, we find this information about these vessel's history as of the time of the armistice of 21 June 1940. CH.1 Toulon CH.2 Saint-Jean-of-Luz Casablanca worms (scuttled?) CH.3 Ajaccio CH.4 Nice CH.5 (ex SC-10) Portsmouth CH.6 (ex SC-11) Portsmouth CH.7 (ex SC-12) Portsmouth CH.8 (ex SC-13) Plymouth CH.9 (ex SC-14) Lost in action CH. 10 (ex SC-15) Portsmouth CH. 11 (ex SC-16) Plymouth CH. 12 (ex SC-28) Plymouth CH. 13 (ex SC-29) Portsmouth CH. 14 (ex SC-30) Portsmouth CH. 15 (ex SC-31) Plymouth CH. 16 (ex SC-32) Scuttled, Groix CH. 41 (ex SC-313) Portsmouth CH. 42 (ex SC-314) Portsmouth CH. 106 Portsmouth CH. 107 Lost (sea risk) This does explain what was written about CH. 11 (ex SC-16) and CH. 15 (ex SC-31) being given over to the Free Polish Navy. >From this website http//france1940.free.fr/navy/mar_jui.html. This information is from "French Navy And The War, 1939-1945 , Philippe MASSON, Paris Tallandier, 1991 ISBN 2-225020410. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) In addition to the history of the French "Chasseurs de Sous-marins" (American 110' Subchasers) that interned at the time of the French armistice of 21 June 1940. These submarine chasers of what became the Free France that had escaped to Portsmouth were involved in the defense of Cowes (island of Wight) from the 3 to 6 May 1942. Being based at the shipyard of the Marvin's Yard [?], had been associated the defense of the island, during the German bombardments, in the night from the 4 to May 5, 1942. CH.5 (ex SC-10), CH.6 (ex SC-11), CH.7 (ex SC-12), CH.8 (ex SC-13), CH. 10 (ex SC-15), CH. 11 (ex SC-16), CH. 12 (ex SC-28), CH. 13 (ex SC-29), CH. 14 (ex SC-30), CH. 15 (ex SC-31), CH. 41 (ex SC-313), and CH. 42 (ex SC-314). Information at http//www.defense.gouv.fr/actualites/breves/2002/culture_et_loisirs/b260402 /260402.htm . Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From "Greg Stout" Subject USS Missouri's Decks I am building a Tamiya 1/350 USS Missouri diorama. I am depicting the ship in her Sept.2, 1945 configuration. In my research I have found conflicting references as to her decks on that day. I have two written references that indicate that her decks were holystoned. I also have seen numerous color photos indicating her decks are Deck Blue during the surrender. I am sure this thread has been through this list before but I am a newcomer. If any of you have any WRITTEN references on the "Mighty Mo's" decks on Sept. 2, 1945 could you please share your source with me. Thanks For The Help, Greg Stout ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Billgior@aol.com Subject Task Force Hobbies January and Febuary sale 10% off on all kits. Hi Everyone We are having a January and February sale, 10% off on all plastic model kits and resin kits also. I will price match anything that is not. Also I am taking pre-orders on Yankee Modelworks kit the USS Holland and from Commanders Ironshipwright kits the USS Oklahoma and the USS Michigan. So if you are interested e-mail me at billgior@aol.com or call me by phone. My number is (313)295-0293. Sincerely Bill Giordano Task Force Hobbies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From shaya novak Subject The USS Winston Churchill http//www.totalnavy.com/350wchurchill.htm Your new 1/350 Flight IIA is in stock. 10 % for all SMML'ers Mention your discount with the order. The Captain Naval Base Hobbies www.totalnavy.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume