Subject: SMML VOL 2422 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 01:00:07 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Oriskany to sail for city soon 2 Re Testors (ex-Hawk) FLETCHER kit 3 Photo Journal 4 Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia 5 USS ARIZONE/PENNSYLVANIA 6 Re PT 73 7 recent Kirov-class kits 8 TRI SVIATITELIA 9 Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia 10 Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits 11 Re Attn SeaWoodies (Mike) 12 Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation 13 Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits 14 Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia 15 Re USS Missouri's Decks 16 Australians at war 17 News from Airfix 18 Museum Quality/Standards and Little guys & Water 19 1/72 U-Boat (Revell) and SS in General 20 Kormoran v Sydney 21 Building Accurate Ship Models From Official Plans 22 Re Building Accurate Ship Models From Official Plans ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1 The Shoho Project -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Task Force Hobbies USS Nevada & USS Oklahoma Model kits 2 MSJ Subscriptions now avialable ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Derek Wakefield" Subject Oriskany to sail for city soon By Matthew Sturdevant Caller-Times January 9, 2004 An 888-foot Korean War-era aircraft carrier will arrive at the Port of Corpus Christi next week to have its innards cleaned of solvents before the ship is sunk offshore to create an artificial reef. Officials haven't announced yet where the ship will be sunk. The USS Oriskany will be towed Tuesday from Beaumont and will arrive later in the week at the Port of Corpus Christi, said Denise Johnston, manager of government contracts for Resolve Marine Services. The company is one of two contracted to clean aircraft carriers. "The tow will commence depending on weather conditions," Johnston said. "It could be in Corpus Christi on the 15th, the 16th, the 17th - it depends on the weather." Resolve Marine Services of Florida, and a Brownsville company, Esco Marine, were jointly awarded a $2.18 million U.S. Navy contract to remove oily solvents from hundreds of tanks and bilge compartments on the ship, according to federal contract information. Cleaning the Oriskany is expensive because the ship has chemicals and substances that are regulated by the federal government for special disposal, such as polychlorinated biphenyls, mercury and asbestos, Johnston has said. The Navy and U.S. Maritime Administration are evaluating applications from five states for four sites - three in the Gulf of Mexico and one off the Atlantic coast - and will decide later this month or in February where it will be sunk. The Oriskany is the last of the Essex Class carriers, the same type as Corpus Christi's museum ship, the Lexington. The Oriskany was used during the Korean and Vietnam wars from 1950 to 1976. It will be the largest ship deliberately sunk as an artificial reef, according to the Maritime Administration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Brooks Rowlett Subject Re Testors (ex-Hawk) FLETCHER kit Observation by Lou Coatney on the NAVWARGAMES list >> The FLETCHERs were 4,512 inches (376') long and the Hawk/Testors SULLIVANS (which seems to be a pentagraphed Revell) is 6.75 inches long ... which comes out to a 1668 scale, not 1582 ... which has been mistakenly claimed for years. << I haven't checked this but it seems to correlate well with the fact that the Aurora FLETCHER, which is supposed to be 1.600 scale, is notably larger than the Hawk/Testors kit; and the Hawk/Testors kits is much closer in size to the Matchbox and Tamiya 1/700 Fletchers. Brooks A Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject Photo Journal http//seattlepi.nwsource.com/photos/subcategory.asp?DisplayType=ThumbDesc&SubID=421 Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Ed" Subject Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia >> PS...Does anyone know what "Tri Sviatitelia " means? << 'Three Saints' Ed Wandall ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From SantMin@aol.com Subject USS ARIZONE/PENNSYLVANIA I'm about 75% of the way through converting a Banner 1/350 USS ARIZONA into a c.1925 USS PENNSYLVANIA. I've just seen a listing that shows a DML 1/700 USS PENNSYLVANIA #7041. Does anyone know if this is really is a PENNSYLVANIA or is it simply a reboxed ARIZONA? Revell did that in the past but it is really not very accurate. Thanks, Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From ALROSS2@aol.com Subject Re PT 73 Which PT 73 - the real one or the "McHale's Navy" TV show one? The real PT 73 was a 78' Higgins and had at least two different configurations during its life. The TV PT 73 was a license-built Vosper (PT 694 or PT 695, I don't remember which). Both 694 and 695 were owned by the American Patrol Boat Museum in CA, but the former TV boat was destroyed in a storm a few years ago. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Phil Stewart Subject recent Kirov-class kits Hi folks. I see that now via my Tridenthobbies newsletter that DML, Trumpeter, and Skywave all have new kits of the Kirov-class heavy rocket cruisers. I've seen a review, I guess at Steelnavy.com, of the Trumpeter kit. I wonder who has seen something similar for the Skywave version. I'm really, really, interested in doing a full-hull version, to implement some diorama ideas I've had, so I'm a little disappointed to hear Skywave isn't doing a full-hull portrayal. I've been waiting for kits like these for a long time, and now I have a backlog of models to build and no place to put new boxes, so I can't justify buying several of the kits. Darn... Any more thoughts on these kits to share? Best, Phil Stewart ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Brooks Rowlett Subject TRI SVIATITELIA I asked Steve McLaughlin, author of the new book on Russian battleships Begin forwarded message >> I do have pretty good drawings of TRI SVIATITELIA in the battleship book, at least in her post-1911 reconstruction appearance; for her original look, I have only a side view. The drawings were done by Yuri Apalkov, and are nice. I can check to see if I have any other drawings in Russian publications; I am pretty sure I haven't seen any lines drawings of her, but I believe I have at least a rough set of lines for POTËMKIN, which used the same hull. "Tri Sviatitelia" means "Three Prelates" -- a reference to Saints Basil, Gregory and John Chrysostom. As far as I know, there is no Russian or Polish book on the ship, but I have a variety of articles on her from Russian books and magazines. << Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Vladimir Yakubov" Subject Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia Do you need drawigs as build or as modified in 1911? I have a decent side view as buildand a good side and deck drawing as rebuilt. Vladimir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From SeaWoodies@aol.com Subject Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits >> Has anyone built any of the 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits? Found at http//www.swampworks.com/Catalog-Kits%20%26%20Hulls.html#anchor365533 )? Though these kits are primarily designed for RC modelers, they do seem to be complete enough starter kits for some truely interesting static models. << Swampworks kits are primarily designed for RC Combat as opposed to RC Scale. They use co2 powered bb cannons and literally try to sink the other guy's boat. Last one afloat wins the sortie. Another experienced manufacturer and naval modeler, Lee Upshaw at the Scale Shipyard.http//members.aol.com/ssyweb/SSYMain.htm, has been doing this for a long long time. I have never been disappointed by any of the products I purchased from him. SeaWoodies@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From SeaWoodies@aol.com Subject Re Attn SeaWoodies (Mike) >> Thanks for your message re AOTS Susan Constant. I appreciate you taking the trouble to find these details out. It's a pity that shipping and insurance will be so expensive << Thank you Mike! I was shocked to find out that postage costs to ship the Burt book which was roughly twice the thickness of a Conway AOTS tome, from Orlando to Atlanta, with $200usd insurance and return receipt requested, was $12usd. This is only a distance of perhaps 400 miles and did not include packing costs. The cost to ship a Conway AOTS from Orlando to you in Australia was estimated at over $20usd, packing not included, by the postal clerk. Since I was only asking $25usd for the books the shipping costs obviously made intercontinental shipping from modeler to modeler somewhat impractical on a cost basis. Perhaps the theory of 'free trade', someday, will eventually trickle down to us lowly citizens. SeaWoodies@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From Joel Labow Subject Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation Hi Miles and Rob, Thanks for your detailed and well-reasoned responses. It was certainly not my intent to condemn CAPT Burnett out of hand, nor was it my purpose to asperse the valor and seamanship of the RAN (as one short-fused listmember has suggested!). I was simply reacting to the suggestion that there was some basis for holding the commanding officer of the Sydney "blameless." There is much about Sydney's last engagement that can never be known however it is possible to compare the relative fighting power of the two ships in detail. (Data taken from ³British Cruisers of World War II² by Alan Raven and John Roberts; US Naval Institute Press 1980 and ³German Raiders - A History of Auxiliary Cruisers of the German Navy 1895-1945² by Paul Schmalenbach; US Naval Institute Press 1979). HMAS Sydney - Modified Leander class light cruiser Displacement 8900 tons Gun armament 8 modern power-served 6² in 4 turrets, 4 single 4²HA , 3 0.5² MG Fire control 1 Director control tower, 1 HACS Mk. III Torpedo armament 8 tubes in 2 quadruple trainable above water mounts Weight of broadside 8 6², 2 4², 4 torpedoes Machinery Parsons S.R. geared turbines, four shafts 32.5 knots Armor 3.5² side; 1²-3² boiler rooms, engine rooms, magazines and turret roofs Aircraft 2 Seagull Complement 645 KMS Kormoran - Auxiliary cruiser converted from merchant ship Steiermark Displacement 19,900 tons Gun armament 6 WWI vintage hand-served 5.9², 3 37mm, 5 20mm Fire control None - mounts fired in local control only Torpedo armament 6 tubes - 2 fixed single underwater and 2 fixed twin above water Weight of broadside 3 5.9², 2 37mm, 3 torpedoes Machinery Diesel-electric, 1 shaft 18 knots Armor None Aircraft 2 Arado Complement 401 It is evident that Sydney was enormously superior to Kormoran in every measure of fighting potential. Even the sole area where their broadsides appear to be roughly comparable (i.e. torpedoes Sydney 4/Kormoran 3) is misleading since Kormoran had fixed tubes i.e. the mounts could not be trained and the entire ship had to be maneuvered to aim torpedoes. Further, Kormoran had no torpedo data computer the Œfish¹ were fired by seaman¹s eye alone and were clearly intended only to sink ships which were more or less dead in the water and not maneuvering. Despite Sydney¹s tremendous materiel advantages Kormoran was able to nullify all of them and beat her into a sinking wreck in a few minutes of action while receiving only 2 hits in return. One of these wrecked the connections between her diesels and electric generators which effectively destroyed her main propulsion plant, which in turn forced her crew to abandon and scuttle her. This remarkable upset victory would not have been possible had not Kormoran been able to achieve virtually total surprise at the outset. This may have been in part due to faulty RN/RAN tactical doctrine but it seems to me an unavoidable conclusion that CAPT Burnett¹s unwariness was a contributory factor as well. I acknowledge that he never had an opportunity to defend himself but submit that the outcome of the engagement speaks for itself. Let me end my last post on this subject by paying tribute to all the brave men both Australian and German who gave their lives in this engagement. Our quibbling pales in comparison with their sacrifice! Best regards, Joel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From Albert Choy Subject Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits >> Has anyone built any of the 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits? Found at http//www.swampworks.com/Catalog-Kits%20%26%20Hulls.html#anchor365533 << Harold, I had been thinking of buying Swampworks DKM Bismarck kit for sometime and coincidentally had placed an order for the kit earlier today. I will let you know my thoughts once I get the kit -- though keep in mind I build model ships for function/utlity rather than static display. regards, Albert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From Daniel Kurtz Subject Re Plans for Tri Sviatitelia >> PS...Does anyone know what "Tri Sviatitelia " means? << Three Saints ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From "Greg Stout" Subject Re USS Missouri's Decks I want to express my appreciation to Michael Connelly, John Snyder, Lawrence M. Ouellette and Steve Wiper for responding to my question. You guys are very gracious in sharing just a little of your vast modeling knowledge with a newbie like me (and I really like how you don't make us new guys feel too stupid). Thanks, Greg Stout ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "John REDMAN" Subject Australians at war By way of followup to Steve Varhegyi's comments on Australia's military contribution in two World Wars according to John Keegan, in WW1 Australian divisions were regarded as the best on either side by both sides. In WW2, Dan van der Vat cites the diary of a Japanese infantry officer killed in New Guinea who thought the Australians the toughest opponents he faced. FWIW. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From Ray Cockram Subject News from Airfix Hi guys and girls, I was looking at the Hannants website recently and it appears that Airfix is releasing a 600 scale Queen Mary 2 this year, good news for liner enthusiasts amonst our number.-) They are also planning a Falklands Warship set in 600 scale, though I have no idea which ships are involved, but no Ark Royal four . Cheers Ray The Falkland Island set will more than likely contain the following 1/600 kits HMS Amazon, HMS Leander and HMS Devonshire. Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From "Ray" Subject Museum Quality/Standards and Little guys & Water Firstly, Hello to Shane and get better, I've spent my my two summer vacations in the "Clap Schack" and no matter how good looking the nurses are, being there is no fun! Franklyn, you have proposed some very interesting ideas for displays. I also have wondered how much water was below the keel of those old battlships at Pearl. I one time I found a web-site that covered a archelogical survey of the Arizona site that had a ton of information such as harbor depth, currents,etc. Of course my memory fails me when I need it. I will say that everytime that we pulled into SubBase Pearl and I had top-side duty, I got a little choked up watching the memorial go by. Rolie, I think that "Museum Quality" is a state of mind ( of the builder). I think that we have probably all seen wonderful models of all genres in mueseums and conversly we have seen some real dogs also. From my view-point, models by Gibbs&Cox are "museum quality", as are ships by Bob Santos, ships and planes by Bob Stienbrum to name a few. A few years ago I tried to convince the modelling group to which I belonged, to band together and build a1/48 scale USS Des Moines to complement the builders model of the USS Iowa on display in out state house rotunda. Conversations with the applicable civil servants about displays and standards led me to the USN standards which we could not as group afford to meet. The USN standards are the only ones that I am aware of at this time. By the way, it is (-)19 deg F. here tonight with a 20 mph wind. Not enough dogs in the house to keep me warm !!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From "Katz, Gene S" Subject 1/72 U-Boat (Revell) and SS in General Excellent comment by U-Boat Net, "good, very good". One ret. Captain here told me that on his boat he had certain fittings moved during construction and refit because of what he termed "damn things to trip over, catch your toes, and hit your elbows and knees". He also had a yard retrofit his boat's sharp corners (inside hull) with leather and brass rivet angle fittings to cover sharp corners so as not to hit your noggin "too" hard when running thru the boat or doing and emergency dive. On modern FBMs, we used thick urethane poured-foam molded for the same effect. Nothing of these reflected on the "as built " drawings either. On another SS tack, anybody ever hear the axiom "Sail an EB Boat in peactime, Portsmouth Boat in wartime"? Anybody know why, or care to guess, since the boats were built to the same plans, specs, and processes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject Kormoran v Sydney Stephen Try to stick to the subject and not introduce irrelivancies. There are many examples of Australian incompetence during WW2 as well as competence. Sydney is an example of the former. Christopher Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Building Accurate Ship Models From Official Plans "Katz, Gene S" stated that "naval architects/marineengineers/designers from two shipyards . . . plans lie." And that we should though equipped with "so-called Official, As-Built plans and drawings, lighten up, relax and enjoy your shipbuilding hobby." While I am in agreement with Mr. Katz about the so-called "rivet-counters" out there in every form of modeling, I cannot agree about dismissing out-of-hand "so-called Official, As-Built plans and drawings" One should look at these "museum-quality" examples from the National Maritime Museum in Paris, the "Musée de la Marine", that has some of its exhibits photographed by Jean-Paul Binot. This superb and almost exclusicely 1/100 scale collection can be seen at http//www.steelnavy.com/MuseedelaMarine.htm . These shots, with some quite detailed, of the Dunkerque, Béarn, Arromanches, Algérie, Duquesne, Georges Leygues, Jeanne d'Arc, Fougueux, D'Entrecastaux (The Musée de la Marine sells plans to build that model.), and the De Grasse (modern). Also included are the La Combattante (The former HMS Haldon, a Hunt class escort destroyer transferred to the Free French Naval forces in 1942. A River-class frigate [Croix-de-Lorraine?] and a Flower-class corvette [Aconit] can be seen in the background), Aconit (was the prototype to the larger and more capable Tourville class frigates), Surcouf (Was the lead ship in a class of 12 destroyers completed in the mid-50s to provide escorts to the new French carriers.), A 69 D'Estienne D'Orves, Duguay-Trouin. Continuing are the D'Entrecasteaux (a Colonial aviso, [sloop] D'Entrecastaux was one of nine vessels designed for foreign service, primarily the tropics. Emphasis was given to habitability and all were fitted as flagships.). Other models that can be seen from specific ships in this collection are the ASW frigate Duguay-Trouin, sister ship to the De Grasse, Fleet Replenishment Ship Durance, and the SSBN Le Redoutable. The address of the Musée de la Marine is Musée National de la Marine Palais de Chaillot, 17, Place du Trocadéro 75116 Paris. Telephone +33 1 53 65 69 69, Fax +33 1 53 65 69 65. I am planning on contacting the museum so as to aquire the drawings that I need to start my French destroyer collection using the Niko kits. In closing, without some form of detailed and "so-called Official, As-Built plans and drawings," one hope to accomplish such "museum-quality" models as these. I have seen very few models that come as close to this level of quality except for a very fwe modelers, but we can always try. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From "Doug Wilde" Subject Re Building Accurate Ship Models From Official Plans Gene, You got that right. I've nearly completed a 3-D CAD of Sable's (IX-81) island and compared it to some NARA photos taken during fitting out. Well, they'd decided to add more 18" airports in one section while eliminating a few in another. And these are the shipyard's plans, complete with penciled cut part numbers and other alterations Never mind the detail sections out of scale in one dimension (Y) but not the other (X). And heaven knows that outside starboard stair bulkhead/rail cannot possibly exist as drawn. Plans give the basics, but photos never (?) lie. Now what color was that deck? Doug Wilde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Wragg, Vin J" Subject The Shoho Project G'day Shane and Lorna, I'm Vin Wragg from the Dandenong Scale Model Club, and we are currently undertaking a project to build a 48th scale Aircraft Carrier, the Shoho (Japanese). Pictures of this project can be seen on the Website www.dandenongsmc.org although these pictures are sightly out of date with the Hull being now completed. Hopefully over the weekend the lastest pictures will be availible to be published. The project was due foe model Expo 2004, but will be 2005 to allow extra time for detailing to be done. What we are after if anyone has information on the Shoho or generic information on Japanese carriers. We would like to subscribe to your site for this very reason, if you could be of assistance we would much appreciate it, thankyou. Kind Regards Vin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Billgior@aol.com Subject Task Force Hobbies USS Nevada & USS Oklahoma Model kits Hi Everyone The resin model kits of the USS Nevada and USS Oklahoma will be available next week and I am taking pre-orders, you can e-mail me our you can call by phone. You can get my Phone number off my website under contact. I will match any prices, these are two beautiful Resin kits put out by Commander's Ironshipwright. So check us out Sincerely, Bill Giordano www.TaskForceHobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Christopher Decker Subject MSJ Subscriptions now avialable SMML TridentHobbies.com is proud to provide an annual subscription service to Model Ship Journal, the magazine writen by ship modelers for ship modelers. In addition to 4 Quarterly issues of Model Ship Journal, subscribers will also be presented with specials taylored to the content of that quarter's issue. Subscription prices are $45.00 for an Annual subscription, $80 for a two year subscription. Issues will be delivered via First Class Mail. International customers are welcome, but will be charged an additional $25.00 per year for express airmail service. If you have any questions, drop me an email. Happy Modeling, and reading! Chris Decker TridentHobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume