Subject: SMML VOL 2423 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:31:29 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ADMIN POST 1 Good News ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Sydney/Kormoran debate 2 Re Various 3 Colors for RN post-WW2 PE fittings 4 Re EB vs Portsmouth SS 5 Re USS ARIZONE/PENNSYLVANIA 6 Re News from Airfix 7 Revell 1/72 U-Boat 8 Re News from Airfix 9 Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation 10 Chicago Maritime Society - Permanent site now a possibility 11 Re Oriskany to sail for city soon 12 Re Model Quality/Methods of Construction Standards 13 Re Oriskany to sail for city soon 14 Re Sydney -Kormoran Comments and Free Speech 15 Re Belfast Bottom 16 Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation 17 Re USS Missouri's Decks 18 Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits 19 Re Australians @ War 20 Trumpeter 1/350th ships 21 Re News from Airfix 22 Pearl Harbour Narrow Guage RR 23 The naming of turrets on warships ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1 Small Warship SIG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 New Ship at The1/600Shipyard 2 Model Ship Journal Update ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ADMIN POST ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 From Lorna Subject Good News Shane came home from the hospital over the weekend to continue his convalescence at home. Enough anti-biotics to float a small cruiser finally eradicated the infection and the doctors felt they could let him go without any more dramas. He's improving but still drained (I don't blame him - he has lost weight) and very glad to be home and appreciative of all your messages of support, as am I. Cheers Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Shane Subject Sydney/Kormoran debate Hi all, Time for my thruppence worth on one of my favourite ships ;-) When this debate started, I went back and re-read my copy of "Bitter Victory - The Death of HMAS Sydney" by Welsey Olsen published in 2000 (proper review to follow soon for the SMML site). Based on this and other research, I'd like to make the following observations I'll echo Olsens's thought in that it is a bloody shame that the loss of Sydney has been seen as something to be ashamed of by certain people for the past 60+ years. This is IMNSHO, NOT the case, the crew of the Sydney upheld the finest traditions of the RAN. HMAS Sydney fought with honour and died an honourable death earning the Battle Honour "Kormoran 1941". In doing so, she took out an experienced surface raider and removed from the German Navy valuable crewmen who might have done more damage to Allied shipping had they survived. If the RAN had intiated a search for Syney 48 hours sooner, it is possible that any survivors might have been found, however this was not to be the case -(. I have the utmost respect for the fighting skills of the Kormoran and her crew in taking on a superior enemy and prevailing, they were a adversary worthy of all our respect and honour. I personally believe that the testimony of the Kormoran's survivors are as close to fact as possible and have stood the test of time. This is based on the fact that NONE of the survivors have AFAIK recanted their claims/testimony for any other wildy different version (I stand to be corrected here). Objectively speaking, in a group as big as the survivors no-one can keep any dirty secrets for 60+ years without someone finding out to the contrary - either by chequebook journalism, slip of the tongue or by someone just wanting to gloat. The fact that some of the survivors settled here in Australia gives some subjective credence to this belief as who would want to live in country where they could be denounced as war criminals if anything leaked. In the case of Capt Burnett, he has unfortunately paid the Price of Command in that while the Captain of a ship receives the lion's share of any glory, he also recieves the lion's share of any blame. However, having said that we will never know the reasoning behind any decisions taken by him and his command staff up to that point and that should factor in his favour with any judgment made of him. Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Brooks Rowlett Subject Re Various 1) TRI SVIATITELIA Try Pacific Front Hobbies, there is likely a Russian language book on the ship that they carry. If not try the new Naval Institute book on Russian and Soviet Battleships, I know the author got permission to use lots of drawings from Russian sources. 2) >> Kimmel at least was still alive and able to press his case to it's fullest extent. If I remember correctly, both he and General Short were found guilty of dereliction of duty by a duly formed military court of inquiry which heard evidence. << Actually they were NOT. That is the issue - they were retired without ever giving themselves a chance to redeem themselves in other assignments, unlike almost everyone else in a command position AFTER THE WAR ACTUALLY STARTED who was likewise taken by surprise - including MacArthur and his air commander, for example, who had their aircraft destroyed on the ground several hours AFTER Pearl Harbor. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Mike Potter Subject Colors for RN post-WW2 PE fittings For RN post-WW2 ships What colors were the steps on accommodation ladders? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re EB vs Portsmouth SS >> Sail an EB Boat in peactime, Portsmouth Boat in wartime"? Anybody know why, or care to guess, since the boats were built to the same plans, specs, and processes << I'm not exactly sure what the saying means, probably reflects perceived differences between the commercial (EB) vs Government built (Portsmouth) in reliability and crew comfort. They were NOT built to the same plans. EB maintained its' own design shop, and although the overall general outlines and dimensions were similar, there were significant differences between the EB hull details (framing shape, limber holes) and the Government plans. Additional details and equipment placement differences existed between the EB and Government plans. Manitowoc used the EB developed plans, Mare Island and Cramp used the Portsmouth plans. In any case, the government is out of the ship building business today, and subs are built at EB or Newport News (or in the case of the Virginia class, at both). Tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Gabriel\(DSL\)" Subject Re USS ARIZONE/PENNSYLVANIA Hi Bob I was very interested in your conversion as it's something that I had been considering. What were your reference sources and anything in particular that struck you as problematic? I'd really appreciate any thoughts you have on the project. Also to anyone else who might be able to recommend good reference sources please let me know. Cheers! Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Brooks Rowlett Subject Re News from Airfix >> The Falkland Island set will more than likely contain the following 1/600 kits HMS Amazon, HMS Leander and HMS Devonshire. << And the LSD FEARLESS? Brooks A. Rowlett Hi Brooks, Oops forgot about that one. Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "Keith Bender" Subject Revell 1/72 U-Boat Hi SMMLies, So what is the golden word on that Revell 172 U boat? Are we getting it in the USA sometime soon while I can still see good enough to build it or what? I'm ready to throw in the towel and let em keep one more for their stock. I don't need one that bad. Just thought I'd express my 2 cents if anyone really cares. KTB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From NeilTaylor54@aol.com Subject Re News from Airfix I agree with Ray the new Falklands Warship set from Airfix will include Devonshire, Leander and Amazon but not Invincible! I wrote many years ago to Airfix to suggest the Exocet fit for those three kits they followed it up but made a cockup with Devonshires' instructions and the Exocet launchers were too small! However my point is that Airfix will respond to suggestions provided it will make a profit. When I wrote to them telling them the high prices paid for certain 'rare' models they re-released them. So if all those of us who are out there who want a 1600 Invincible were to write to Airfix making the same points there is a chance they might listen. The points I would make are 1. Make a universal hull that can be modified into the three sister ships at various dates eg. i) Falklands Invincible with 7 degree ski-jump.Sea Harriers FRS 1, GR3's and Sea Kings. ii) Gulf War Ark Royal 12 degree ski-jump, phalanx's, Sea Harrier FRS2 and Sea King AEW2. iii) Iraq War Illustrious 12 degree and no Sea Dart. Flight Deck extension with Goalkeeper, Merlins and Chinooks. That still leaves the Bosna War option for any of the sisters. If they are going to invest in the QM2 they could make twice the profit from a multi-sistered Invincible. There is of course the multi-sistered Type 22 but lets focus on one at a time. So brothers and sisters let write or e-mail Airfix and get this campaign going! best wishes Neil Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "William H. Shuey" Subject Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation >> KMS Kormoran - Auxiliary cruiser converted from merchant ship Steiermark Displacement 19,900 tons Gun armament 6 WWI vintage hand-served 5.9², 3 37mm, 5 20mm Fire control None - mounts fired in local control only Torpedo armament 6 tubes - 2 fixed single underwater and 2 fixed twin above water Weight of broadside 3 5.9², 2 37mm, 3 torpedoes Machinery Diesel-electric, 1 shaft 18 knots Armor None Aircraft 2 Arado Complement 401 << I am immediately struck by Kormoran's displacement, she must have been a rather large ship for the time. I would be interested to know what displacement/size ships the Royal Navy's intelligence on German raiders suggested were being used for raiders? Could it be that Kormoran was a much larger ship than the good Captain had been led to expect? Also, are those 5.9 inch guns twin mounts? That makes a total of 12 guns if I read it right. That's a lot of firepower by the standards of 1940. William Shuey Baltimore, Maryland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Kurt Van Dahm Subject Chicago Maritime Society - Permanent site now a possibility Ahoy As a member of the Chicago Maritime Society I was asked to contact as many people as I can to help the Chicago Maritime Society find a new home for the museum and archives of the CMS. The CMS Board has been in contact with the powers within the City of Chicago regarding the former Fire House structure at Meigs Field now know as Northerly Island. For those who are not familiar with the City, Meigs Field on Northerly Island was shut down recently. It is located on a man made island just off the downtown area of the city adjacent to the Natural History Museum, the Shedd Aquarium and the Adler Planetarium. The Chicago MAritime Society has a great collection of ship and boat models as well as many full size native American canoes and a great research library. However none of their collection is available to the public on a regular basis as the Society is without a permanent home. The city has said that the former fire station structure may be available to them if they have the support of the public. That's us. Please click on the link below and fill in the form with your name, etc. and that you are a ship modeler and want to see the CMS given use of this building. Let's do our part to get a site we can be proud of for the rich maritime history of Chicago to be showcased. If you don't live in the city, I would suggest leaving your address off the form as they really don't care for the opinions of "foreigners" outside of the city limits, but the address is not a required field of information. http//www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/contact.home/RequestTimeout/500/topic/Northerly%20Island Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "Matthew Prager" Subject Re Oriskany to sail for city soon Yep, saw her coming down the Copus Christi shipping channel a couple of weeks ago while I was wlking down the pier to my ship. She was in pretty sad shape. I saw her from a distance at her berth near Beaumont as we were transiting to Beaumont for their Navy Days celebration. Matt Prager ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From "graham" Subject Re Model Quality/Methods of Construction Standards I have a copy of a artical from Scale model Warship called "Ship modeling and the U.S. Navy Pt 2" which has all the requirements for specifing a how a model should be build such as 1.1 Durabability of Matreials 1.2 Workmanship to 7.1.1 Sample schedule of materials 7.2 Transportation this Standard is dated july 1981 the artical is on how David W Taylor Naval Ship Reseach centre unfornatly I do not have a date or issue no for the artical but it would have been in the 1980's Graham Murdoch ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From AAA Hobby Supply Subject Re Oriskany to sail for city soon >> An 888-foot Korean War-era aircraft carrier will arrive at the Port of Corpus Christi next week to have its innards cleaned of solvents before the ship is sunk offshore to create an artificial reef << Happened a week or so ago. Plenty of pics online as I am sure a dozen others will link to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject Re Sydney -Kormoran Comments and Free Speech Christopher Amano-Langtree wrote >> Try to stick to the subject and not introduce irrelivancies. There are many examples of Australian incompetence during WW2 as well as competence. Sydney is an example of the former. << I don't know where you live Christopher but in Australia we practice democracy and free speech. I am quite entitled to express an opinion, as you are. If you believe that the sinking of HMAS Sydney was a case of Australian "incompetence", as you put it, show us the evidence. YOU CAN'T, and that was exactly my point. The benefit of the doubt lies with the poor brave souls resting on the bottom of the Indian Ocean. It's easy for armchair admirals to make all sorts of assumptions. However, when this involves making unfounded allegations about our glorious war dead, it's gone too far. Until you have proof, I think you should abstain from making any further judgments /comments. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning. We will remember them. Lest we forget. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From Subject Re Belfast Bottom >> Any of you gentlemen or ladies have any Idea where I can find the lines for a Belfast Bottom? << From the following extract I would conclude that "belfast bottom" is a style of design - in fact the style of most modern ships - rather than a specific ship type. >> http//www.bookrags.com/books/moiai/PART12.htm CHAPTER XI. SHIPBUILDING IN BELFAST--ITS ORIGIN AND PROGRESS. BY SIR E. J. HARLAND, ENGINEER AND SHIPBUILDER. ....... The ship,however, must float; and to hit upon the happy medium of velocity and stability seems to me the art and mystery of shipbuilding. In order to give large carrying capacity, we gave flatness of bottom and squareness of bilge. This became known in Liverpool as the "Belfast bottom;" and it has been generally adopted. This form not only serves to give stability, but also increases the carrying power without lessening the speed. << Maurice ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From Subject Re Sydney/Kormoran and CAPT Burnett's Reputation >> This remarkable upset victory would not have been possible had not Kormoran been able to achieve virtually total surprise at the outset. This may have been in part due to faulty RN/RAN tactical doctrine but it seems to me an unavoidable conclusion that CAPT Burnett¹s unwariness was a contributory factor as well. I acknowledge that he never had an opportunity to defend himself but submit that the outcome of the engagement speaks for itself. << Joel It remains that these are merely your opinions and your submission. Whilst you may feel you possess certainty already the debate will continue until and unless we all obtain certainty based on actual knowledge. Without that the outcome of the engagement speaks incomprehensibly to many people. I also will not post again on this. Maurice ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From Rick & Charlotte Subject Re USS Missouri's Decks >> Remember too that her Ms.12 paint scheme was non-standard, in that the entire hull was 5-N Navy Blue. << John, what is your source for this? In Stillwell's book on the Missouri there are several wartime photos, including some taken in Tokyo Bay, clearly showing Mo with the two-tone hull typical of that measure. Later in the fall, or possibly into 1946, it does appear that her entire hull was painted a single dark color (one caption purportedly from her 1946 Med cruise states that it is dark grey, rather than the dark blue it was painted for Navy Days in New York the year before - but I will leave it to the photo interpreters to argue that one!) Perhaps her hull was painted a solid 5-N for Navy Days, then overpainted with a dark grey later in the year? It looks like one can depict Mo in any of several similar schemes from that relatively short time span - standard Ms. 12 (or is that 22?), a non-standard measure with a solid 5-N hull with 5-H upperworks, and a dark grey hull (5-0, perhaps?) with the light upperworks; but for the surrender ceremonies, she sure seems to have been painted according to the standard measure. Rick Marelius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re 1/144 scale Swampworks' kits Albert Choy wrote >> I had been thinking of buying Swampworks DKM Bismarck kit for sometime and coincidentally had placed an order for the kit earlier today. I will let you know my thoughts once I get the kit -- though keep in mind I build model ships for function/utlity rather than static display." And SeaWoodies@aol.com stated that "Lee Upshaw at the Scale Shipyard. http//members.aol.com/ssyweb/SSYMain.htm , has been doing this for a long long time. I have never been disappointed by any of the products I purchased from him. << Having seen what can be done in 1/100 scale with those models at the Musée de la Marine in Paris, and the plans available from them, I cannot resist doing a larger scale French "CROISEURS LEGERS CLASSE GALISSONNIERE" of the Le Georges Leygues ("Gorgeous Legs"), the "TORPILLEURS CLASSE BOURRASQUE" of the La Bourrasque, or even of the "AVISOS COLONIAUX CLASSE BOUGAINVILLE" (sloop) of the Le D'Entrecasteaux. I know that there are many hulls available for USN ships in 1/96 and other scales, but the visual impression of what these French ships look like when finished is truely amazing. Besides having excellent war records, they will certainly turn heads when finished. Though a 1/96 scale RN "D" class Emergency Cruiser would also be as effective. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From andrew jones Subject Re Australians @ War As an Aussie...i hope i dont get by wacked the Aussies here... but i rember reading a book on Rommel & he stated that the best he fough against was the Kiwi's..the aussie's came 2nd (guess he must have been suffereing heat stroke when he said that... joking!) ..i think he said the British treated the war like business & the Americans like sport or something to that extent.. He respected the Indians & they would have been higher on his list if they had better leaders in the field. regards Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From Richard Sweeney Subject Trumpeter 1/350th ships Greetings SMMLies... I work part time at a Hobby shop near my home. today for the first time I saw Trumpeter 1/350th scale Kamov KA-27 Hormon A's which leads me believe that the 1/350th Admiral Kuznetsov is on it's way out. Can anyone confirm that? Thanks. Rich Sweeney ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From J.L.Pickstock@lboro.ac.uk Subject Re News from Airfix >> The Falkland Island set will more than likely contain the following 1/600 kits HMS Amazon, HMS Leander and HMS Devonshire. Lorna << and possibly HMS Fearless as well? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From "Les Pickstock" Subject Pearl Harbour Narrow Guage RR Here's a long shot! In my Alta Ego of a mild mannered railroad modeller I was considering modelling the narrow gauge railroad that ran in and around Pearl Harbour. I was wondering if anyone had any maps or drawing that show the railroad around the naval base or the naval supply depot. Any other info would be received with gratitude also. Les Pickstock ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From "Harold Stockton" Subject The naming of turrets on warships While the Germans named their turrets with names such as Anton, Berta, and such, what is known of such practices in other navies? I recently found this information out about the French cruiser Montcalm, with an armament of 9 guns of 152 mm in 3 triple turrets; 8 guns of 90 mm in four double platforms; 24 guns of 40 mm in 6 quadruple mountings; 16 guns of 20 mm and two torpedo tubes double. The turrets and mountings accepted the names of the regiments of Montcalm Royal Roussillon, the Saar, the Queen for the 152 mm and Béarn, Berry, Guyenne and Languedoc for the 90 mm turrets. During the events of the war were to result in the naming of the three barrels of one of the turrets Corsica, Normandy and Provence. Found at http//www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/montcalm/index.htm I have not found out if other cruisers of this class; i.e. Galissonnière (1931-1942), Jean of Vienna (1931-1942), Glorie (1933-1958), Marseillaise (1933-1942), Montcalm (1933-1969) and the George Leygues (1933-1959), or other French ships followed this practice. An interesting side-line to naval history. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From brownatfareham@surefish.co.uk Subject Small Warship SIG The latest issue of Escort has just been uploaded to the website - www.smallwarshipgroup.org.uk. Regards Les Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Thomas Riepe" Subject New Ship at The1/600Shipyard Hi everybody This is to tell you all that the Graf Zeppelin carrier in 1/600 is ready for purcase now More info at www.thomasriepe.gmxhome.de Thomas The1/600Shipyard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Victor M. Baca" Subject Model Ship Journal Update Thanks for all your patience while we set Model Ship Journal on its new course. We have positioned MSJ with mainstream book sellers and you should be able to find the magazine at Barnes & Noble, Hastings Books and on hobby shop shelves as well as the independent booksellers. In Canada, we are distributed by Gordon & Gotch. Single issues can also be purchased directly from us at retail pricing by emailing me or calling 360-371-0290. We ship USPS 1st Class mail, postpaid. Contact Chris Decker at Trident Hobbies if you prefer a subscription. The Winter 2003-2004 issue is on the stands now and all subscribers still on the list should have their magazines (outside U.S. may take longer for mail to arrive). I'm beginning work on the Spring 2004 issue which will be ready to go to press at the end of this month. For info on the content of the Winter issue go to our new website at www.modelshipjournal.com. I am still building it, but the basic info and photography is there. We are also presenting selected photos and plans from previous issues. In the near future, I will be adding a link to larger sized plan images for you guys who, like me, can't resist a neat ship drawing. Victor Baca Editor & Publisher MODEL SHIP JOURNAL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume