Subject: SMML VOL 2453 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:53:18 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re German & Russian "Marine Corps" in WWII 2 Re Copyright 3 Re Copyright 4 Next question 5 copyright 6 Re copyright 7 New Topic; Steam Sloops and Frigates 8 Re Steam Sloops and Frigates 9 Re Next Question 10 Suisan bay tours 11 Niko Model's BURZA wz. 43 12 Lights 13 Re New Topic; Steam Sloops and Frigates 14 Re Copyright 15 Re Copyright 16 Re Niko Models correct price ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1 MosquitoCon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Peter Samolinski" Subject Re German & Russian "Marine Corps" in WWII The Grmans never had anything like that at all; regular army troops were to be used for the invasion of England, and all Baltic & Black Sea operations likewise utilized regular army units. (In fact, they didn't even have a naval air arm - even the ships' planes fell under the aegis of the Luftwaffe and the crews were Luftwaffe personnel.) However, the Soviets did have a Marine Corps-like "naval infantry," and they made great use of them in the Black Sea area as well as in the Baltic. A part of this formed the kernel for the later development of the "Spetznaz" - both a highly trained marine force as well as Navy SEALS-like special ops group. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Richa5011@aol.com Subject Re Copyright I'm not a lawyer, but as a marketing communications professional, I deal with US copyright law all the time. FYI - the complete US Copyright Law may be downloaded in PDF format from www.loc.gov....hundreds of pages of it! That being said, its not just copyright that is at issue, but the dreaded "intellectual property rights" that effects model manufacturers. >> a) I have no idea if what said is true. When does copyright end? << This varies from nation to nation. In the US, it use to be 50 years, but changes to the law in the past 15 years have extended it to between 75 and 125 years depending on several factors. US Copyright can also be extended beyond that under certain circumstances and it can be renewed by the owners for another term. >> b) As I build masters for others to produce, is it them or me who is liable? << Again, this will depend upon national law and also if your agreement with the manufacturer agrees to indemnify you against such action. Give a lawyer a reason to sue and you'd be surprised how imaginative some can be in who they include. >> c) What are the chances of litigation? << Increasing with each passing year. >> d) Do Tamiya, Trumpeter et al pay and some form of limitation apply to one off models? << Generally the answer is that the major manufacturers do get a license from companies (Boeing, Ford, Ferrari, etc) before doing a model. There was an excellent article in Fine Scale Modeler in the July 1991 issue on this subject as well as another article in Model Retailer during December 2002 (or there abouts). Since that time, US laws, and also the companies requiring a license for their products, have greatly increased the costs and complexity of getting such a license. It use to be a company was thrilled to have one of their cars or planes offered as a model, now the kit and decal manufacturers have to pay for the privilege. Licensing is probably a significant reason the new Trumpeter car kits are twice the price as originally proposed. It's also a significant reason why the newer Tamiya F1 cars are so expensive when compared with the kits that have been reissued from the 70's and 80's. Just recently, a decal manufacturer here in So. Cal that specialized in NASCAR subjects, announced that they will be ceasing operations when existing stock is exhausted...the reason is that the licensing has become harder to get and more expensive than is worth the effort. FYI - China did not have either copyright or intellectual property laws until the late 1990's, though they still tend to be ignored more than they are enforced. Note that, in the US atleast, the above comments on licensing only applies to making a model for commercial purposes. Should you choose to scratchbuild a model solely for your own collection, as many ship modelers do, that is not a problem. Likewise, government designs, as in most warships, are not covered by copyright or intellectual property. Those designs enter the public domain at various times depending on the national law and when the ships exit service. >> e) Is there anything else I should know before embarking on a modern subject? << I would suggest you speak with a lawyer who specializes in intellectual property and copyright. Since laws and liabilities varies between nations, you cannot set a single set of rules to protect yourself....CYA is always cheap insurance. Nat Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject Re Copyright Should have hit him harder! Whatever you are making a model of, say a Navy ship is public domain and no copyright applies unless they say so but that is usually for printing purposes as an acknowledgement to the owner. And even if it is copyrighted the old rule of thumb when I was a graphic artist is that you could get around any copyright by changing at least 3 things on the orginial and therefore it was no longer protected. The company I worked for did this and we never got a single lawsuit. But with models that is the supidist statement I have ever heard from anyone. The guy probably just showed up at the model show and has never built one in his life - probably a lawyer with nothing else to do. In the case of my paintings, I always sign it with a c and a circle around it and the date - meaning that it is automatically copyright protected. But not much I can do once I put it on the internet and it becomes public. Keep doing what you are doing. But if you are going to mass produce your models you might want to copyright them to protect youself - but remember outside of your country you are pretty much screwed, especially if it is a "3rd world" country. Good luck Michael Donegan Naval, Coast Guard & Aviation Artist http//www.navydaze.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Gary Subject Next question I'm sure someone will give a much better answer but I believe the following basic info to be accurate to the best of my trivial knowledge Germany-Don't recall any specific USMC equivalent Russia/Soviet-has Naval Infantry units UK-has the famous Royal Marines HTH Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Russell Barnett Subject copyright My goodness, I am enchanted by the 2x4 method of social interaction! And any such fool who would raise such a stupid questions re copyright. A copy right has to do with written material. Your written description of your model entitles you to the copyright of your original words, so the designer of the subject vessel, the owner of the subject vessel, the designer of the model, the model company issuing the model and other owners of the kit have no claim of right to your written words. Thus the copyright question actually works in your favor. A trademark is a registered symbol, phrase or image. (think Coca-Cola's bottle shape, Nike's "Swoosh", the phrase "No on can eat just one!") A trademark is used to identify a brand or type of product in the market place. A design of a vessel, vehicle or aircraft does not qualify as a "trademark". (Although Grumman could register the name "Super Tomcat" and sue any other aircraft manufacturer who tried to market an aircraft called "the Super Tomcat", but I would not expect that to happen as a practical matter....but the competing manufacturer could not use the Grumman logo (wing-y looking thing) as part of their marketing strategy. Finally, a patent protects an idea or a unique design to accomplish a given task in a unique manner. (A garden hose cannot be patented [no unique way to accomplish the task, or way to design a long tube]. A nozzle for that hose MAY be eligible for a patent if the design is unique [e.g. creates a solid sheet of water in a 10 degree arc]). You cannot patent an airplane as a whole, because it is not a unique form of the idea, but you can patent the various components of the airplane if they accomplish a novel task, or offer some unique advantage over systems designed to accomplish much of the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Mike C Subject Re copyright This is a question that plastic manufacturers do have to deal with. I remember when Fujimi came out with their 1/24 Porsche 356 series, the tires were either Pirelli or Continental (I don't remember now without checking). In that case, the tire manufacturer either demanded royalties or was worried about litigation if a child swallowed a kit tire marked with their logo, but they made Fujimi remove the name from the molds. I suppose I could use that to jack up the price if I wanted to sell those kits, but I'm saving them for special projects. I have also heard that model companies have to get permission to use sponsor logos on race cars and that car makers are entitled to royalties on models made from their designs. In most cases, the copyright holder signs off on the model without requiring royalties, so it isn't usually a problem since the model is contributing to their product marketing. It is my understanding that most military designs are in the public domain, so no royalties are required. I've seen some kits marked with, "Designed in cooperation with...," but I don't know if that reflects the copyright issue or if it implies that the model is more accurate because of that. This would be a good introduction for "lawyer jokes," but they would be off topic, so I'll show some restraint... Have fun, Mike C ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "Jim Powles" Subject New Topic; Steam Sloops and Frigates There are several manufactures that make metal and resin Civil War model kits in 1/600. Take a look at Thoroughbred Models at http//www.thoroughbredmodels.com/ and Bay Area Shipyards at http//bayareayards.virtualscratchbuilder.com/ Also I understand Peter Pig also makes models in this scale. I am firmiliar with Thoroughbred, which are metal, and have found them to be very good. Have not tried Bay Area Shipyards but heard they are good also. Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From John Wressell Subject Re Steam Sloops and Frigates Taubman Plans Service in Jersey City, NJ will be able to fix you up with very fine plans for Civil War era wooden ships. Sure you can find some kits on the internet. Try Iron Shipwright. They have a great selection of Spanish American War vessels. Just finished a 1/350 of USS Brooklyn. Turned out very well. John Wressell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From Bill Weckel Subject Re Next Question >> Next question. Did (or do) the German and/or the Russian military have something similar to our Marine Corps ? I think the Japanese did in WW2, but don't know about now. I'm equally unsure about the French, currently. Also, I am not sure about England at the present time. << The USSR had Naval Infantry formations during the time I served in the USN (86-91). IIRC, the were heavier than ours and their armor units were T-72 equiped. I am also pretty sure that all but their heaviest units were airborne capable. Just going from memory here - haven't looked at my references. They had a colorful history, especially during WWII. Also fought in Afghanistan. Not sure whether the CIS has retained them. Google on Soviet Naval Infantry and you'll find hundreds of links. The UK most definitely does - the Royal Marines. Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Darren Scannell Subject Suisan bay tours Hi All, I'll be in San Francisco this summer and would like to know if anyone has hired a boat for tours of the mothballed ships before. Specifically, is it worth it and do you have any info on boat operators to hire? Thanks! Darren Scannell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Niko Model's BURZA wz. 43 The new Niko Model's BURZA wz. 43 has been released and is available at http//www.nikomodel.pl/burza43.html . I recently gave a review of their products where I inadvertantly quoted the retail price at being $15.00 plus postage. This was a mistake on my part in that it should be $22.00 retail price plus postage, as I had originally quoted. My apologies to both Niko Models and to anyone this may have caused some misunderstanding. Concerning this latest version of the Burza, this is the mid-war guise of this French built torpilleurs d'escadre of the Bourrasque class. The main difference in this molding of this famous class is the changes in her main armament to include two 130 mm guns, one hedgehog, and one quadruple 40 mm AA guns; this was done in her February to September 1942 refit. After that refit, the Burza operated with another escort group, the B-6. On 21 February1943 Burza was dispatched to help the ON-166 convoy, covered by the A-3 escort group. On the 22nd, the destroyer joined the convoy and was ordered to sink an abandoned Norwegian tanker, doing so with one torpedo. Later that same night, the German U-boat U-606 (Type VII-C) attacked the convoy but was soon spotted by the Burza and was attacked. the attack was so accurate that the U-boat was forced to the surface and was then finished off by the US Coast Guard Cutter USS Campbell. All of the necessary pieces are there to finish off the Burza in her 1943 fit, and the finished kit looks quite impressive in her Western Approaches scheme of WA Blue and Admiralty White; at http//www.nikomodel.pl/foto/burza43/md1.JPG . With the addition of some photoetched pieces and railings, this kit should prove a very welcome addition to any Atlantic escort collection. Again, the retail price is $22.00 plus postage from the manufacturer or from Jadar Hobbies. All in all, a nice multi-media kit. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From Gary Kingzett Subject Lights Can anyone give me any information about the lights on a US predreadnought, 1907? What they were made of and what they were for? I know about the searchlights, and I have figured out how to make the Ardois lights, but I am wondering about the various white lights on the mast, the shape of the mast trucks and the stern light. I am working in 1144, so these things will be right up top where everyone can see them. Thanks, Gary PS I am also asking on SteelNavy. G ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From PAUL TOSCANO Subject Re New Topic; Steam Sloops and Frigates >> I have been considering building some models of Civil War wooden warships. I know that not much is offered in kits (the Hartford and Alabama were at one time, but not currently -- << Hi John, Revell Germany has just re-issued its Kearsarge Kit, the Civil War Era Sloop that sank CSS Alabama. This is a rather good kit. Their model of Alabama was based on this kit. Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "David N. Lombard" Subject Re Copyright >> Someone must know this.. I was at a model show the weekend before last, minding my own business, when some complete stranger asked me a question about my models "How do you get around the copyright when you make a model?" To fob him off, I said something about copyright lapsing after fifty years (I was exhibiting WWII subject matter) and that therefore the matter does not arise. To demonstrate the truth of my arguement, I beat him around the head with a piece of 4x2. He had no follow up questions. << Iron pipe also works well for this purpose... ;^) I can only imagine a lawyer -- with malice aforethought -- asking this question. Seriously though (well, I'm serious about lawyers and iron pipe), there must be some issue brewing here for the manufacturers of models as a recent visit to The Military Shop here in Long Beach showed the some models of Boeing A/C (actually, MacDac, but you know how assimilation works) had copyright attributions to Boeing on the box. I can't remember the model manuf, maybe Tamiya or Hasagewa. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From Randy Ward Subject Re Copyright >> How do you get around the copyright when you make a model? << Dan, I'm not a legal expert, but have a small knowledge of copyright issues, being a professional photographer and writer for many years. First of all, copyright laws and their enforcement vary with country and states/provinces. Some countries may honor those of others, but many don't. What is copyrightable is open to wide interpretation, but it's generally agreed that company logos and slogans, original works of art, and original works of writing may be copyrightable. General work done for/by the US government, such as publicly-distributed maps (and warship designs) are not readily copyrightable, as the legalities of who owns the designs, specs, etc. can get to be a big can of worms. Extremely distinct designs might be copyrightable, although it's again open to interpretation. Designs long in the public eye, such as WW2 ships and planes are not really copyrightable, IMHO. The USS Enterprise, for example, would hardly be a copyrightable design, although particulars of components therein might be. Photography is protected similarly to artwork. The person contracting the photographic work, in many areas, owns the rights for use, although the photographer may own the right to retain the negatives. Your master might be considered just your artistic interpretation of someone's design, provided it contains no protected logos or trademarks. (Car models, on the other hand, are distinctive designs of which the logo is an integral part.) >> a) I have no idea if what said is true. When does copyright end? << In the US, written material is protected until sometime (50 years?) after the author's death, and I believe is renewable once by the beneficiary. After that, I believe it can be considered public domain. As for artwork, 'don't know. >> b) As I build masters for others to produce, is it them or me who is liable? << If you have a contract to build a single model for someone, I wouldn't think that you would be "on the hook". The entity (person or company) that makes that design available to the public would most likely be the one to be targeted. If in doubt, check with your lawyer/solicitor. >> c) What are the chances of litigation? << Normally, I'd think fairly small. However, I've heard that some aircraft companies have attempted to claim a design copyright for planes designed for and sold to the government, and force model manufacturers to pay a royalty. 'Don't know that any have been successful. >> d) Do Tamiya, Trumpeter et al pay and some form of limitation apply to one off models? << I would be surprised if they paid any royalties to anyone. Disclaimer I don't claim to be an expert in this area. This is just my opinion, based on my exposure to copyright issues over the past 30 years. Cap'n Randy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re Niko Models correct price I recently did a review of the Niko Model's ORP Burza/Wicher wz.36 in which I quited a retail price of $15.00, and I again misquoted their price here as being $22.00 plus postage. The official price of this company's models are $22.50 plus postage. In my advancing years I suffer from more brain farts than literal ones, which are many. My apologies to both this forum and to Adam Koscicki of Niko Models. These models are still great value at their originally posted and current retail price. Sorry. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "NJAHOF" Subject MosquitoCon Contrary to popular belief, MosquitoCon has had a very good turnout of ships in the last few years, including a pair of 1/100 scale battleships (Hood and Bismarck) and a 1/192 Missouri last year. NJ IPMS has a number of ship modelers, myself, Gary Kingzette, Bob LaPadura, Tom VanDermark, Martin Quinn, and others that drive the categories. It's also been well visited due to my time at Modelwarships.com. ANY multi-category show you attend is going to be dominated by aircraft and armor, period. Unless you're headed to the NRG or Mariner's Museum events, that's just the facts of life. Jeff Herne VP, NJIPMS www.njipms.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume