Subject: SMML VOL 2474 Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 02:04:04 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Carrier Picture 2 Yankee ship modelers 3 Re Where's WEM 4 Re Subchasers and a mystery ship 5 Re Subchasers and a mystery ship 6 USS Franklin Hanger deck 7 Re Mystery ship 8 Greek Battleships 9 Washington, Oregon Maritime Sites 10 Re Carrier Picture 11 Re Carrier Picture 12 O'Hare 13 Re 1950s destroyers 14 Carrier picture 15 greek mystery ship 16 Re Subchasers and a mystery ship 17 Stern Lights 18 Re Carrier Picture 19 UNIDENTIFIED CARRIER 20 Re Carrier Picture 21 shipmodel 22 Mystery photos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Rod Dauteuil" Subject Carrier Picture >> In my research of Pearl Harbor railroads I came across this pic of a carrier.(Railroad cars are circled) Anyone any ideas of her identity? << Looks like the USS Saratoga CV3 to me. Rod ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Melvinsmith29@aol.com Subject Yankee ship modelers Has anyone bought anything from this company yet. How's the quality and the service? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From wem Subject Re Where's WEM Hi Allan, >> Where's WEM? I could at least get pictures of the cottage. -) << WEM is about 4.5 hours' drive west-northwest from London, near Ludlow in Shropshire, about 10 miles from the border with Wales. ;^) Cheers, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "David T. Okamura" Subject Re Subchasers and a mystery ship You're right -- it WAS a former U.S. battleship. That was the either the Lemnos (ex-BB 23, USS Mississippi) or her sister the Kilkis (ex-BB 24, USS Idaho). These two oddballs were the last pre-dreadnoughts in the U.S. Navy, but they were poor "bargain basement" versions of the previous Connecticut class. In service only from 1908 to 1914, they were unsuccessful and were quickly disposed of, the only U.S. battleships to be sold off to a foreign navy. By the time they were decommissioned and sold, one was already a seaplane support ship and the other a training ship, an indication of how useless they were as first-class fighting vessels. About the only benefit the U.S. Navy received from these ships was the fact that their sale provided enough cash to fund an additional New Mexico-class dreadnought -- BB 42, also named USS Idaho. In the Greek Navy, both served as coastal defense ships until the early 1930s, when they were converted to training ships. (Lemnos was further degraded to an accommodation ship in 1937.) These sisters were sunk by German divebombers on April 23, 1941 and scrapped in 1951. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "vikes800" Subject Re Subchasers and a mystery ship The mystery ship could be either the former U.S.S Mississippi or the former U.S.S. Idaho, which were 13,000 ton battleships built for the us navy in 1904-1905 and sold to the Greek navy in 1914. The Mississippi became the Lemnos, and the Idaho became the Kilkis. Both ships served as coastal defense ships for the Greek navy until they were sunk in April 1941 by German aircraft in the harbor at Salamis. I do not know why the U.S. flag under the Greek. Tom Brainard Cleveland, Ohio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Robert C. Frye" Subject USS Franklin Hanger deck I am building the Trumpeter USS Franklin model. I want to build the kit with some of the doors to the hanger deck open, but the kit includes no information about the color scheme used in the hanger. Does anyone know what the correct colors are? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Gary Kingzett Subject Re Mystery ship >> One of the more intrigueing photos that I cannot explain is a photo taken 9-15-1919 in Smyrna, Turkey. The caption is "Greek Battleship Firing Salute to Admiral Bristol". The photo clearly shows a Geek Flag at the foremast, just above the US flag. But I swear the ship has two tall cage masts, twin stacks, and a high pre-dreadnought bow. The stern appears to be very close to the waterline. I can only see one large turret at the bow. It LOOKS like a battleship but it also seems too short to be one. Without any research, it does not add up. Why the US flag under the Greek flag? << Roger, that sounds very much like a picture of either Kilkis or Lemnos, Greek battleships, formerly the predreadnought battleships USS Mississippi or Idaho. Your supposition is correct. They were too short to be US battleships. In a cost cutting measure, they had been built 3,000 tons lighter, 75 feet shorter and 3 knots slower than their predecessors the Connecticuts. And their sterns were one deck lower than their extended forecastle deck. They were sold by the US to Greece in 1914. Their original single military masts were replaced by twin cage masts in 1912. I wonder if your photo could have been misdated? These ships were part of a serious problem between the Allies, Germany, Turkey and Greece which ultimately led to SMS Goeben being given to Turkey by Germany and Turkey entering the war on the German side. Possibly your picture shows some part of the turn-over proceedings when Greece took title to the ships from the US in 1914. Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Joel Labow Subject Greek Battleships >> But I swear the ship has two tall cage masts, twin stacks, and a high pre-dreadnought bow. The stern appears to be very close to the waterline. I can only see one large turret at the bow. << Roger, After WWI the US sold the predreadnaughts USS Mississippi (BB-23) and USS Idaho (BB-24) to Greece - they became the Kilkis and Lemnos respectively. In a miniature mediterranean version of Pearl Harbor both were sunk in Salamis harbor by German dive bombers in 1941. If you do a Google search under "Greek Battleship Kilkis" or Lemnos you can find lots of pictures. Best regards, Joel Labow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From ELLshipmodeler@aol.com Subject Washington, Oregon Maritime Sites Now it's my turn to ask for suggestions. I have checked the listing of maritime sites on the Nautical Research Guild's web site (I placed most of them there when I was chairman and serving as webmaster). However, there are too many listed for Washington (state) and Oregon to cover in a short trip. http//www.naut-res-guild.org/Services/museum.html Would someone please inform me of the best places to visit. I will be visiting my son near Tacoma early next month. Rather than bog down this list you can just reply directly to me at ELLshipmodeler@aol.com Thanks, Gene Larson Alexandria, VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From wem Subject Re Carrier Picture Hi Les, That's SARATOGA. Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models http//WhiteEnsignModels.com for secure online ordering. For the latest news from WEM, Click Here http//www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/whats_new1.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Ned Barnett Subject Re Carrier Picture J.L. The photo at http//smmlonline.com/reference/misc_ship/carrier01.jpg shows either the Lexington or Saratoga. I can't confirm this (the photo didn't blow up big enough for me to be sure), but this looks to be pre-war. I can't spot any of the wealth of radar and radio antennas that festooned fleet aircraft carriers after about 1942. That may explain the planes on deck - flying them off may have been a wartime expedient. Another thought, since there are fuel tanks in the photo, is that the ship had just stopped for a quick fill-up on the way to somewhere else, obviating the need to land the air wing. Both are just guesses - the photo needs to be enlarged more than I can manage before these weak eyes can ID the types of planes on deck. BTW - both circled railroad cars look like street rail passenger cars (trolleys) to me. Is that how you see it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From Mnw888@aol.com Subject O'Hare Hi My wife and I have taken our holidays in the States the last few years and every one seems to start and finish at O'Hare airport plus all the internal flights go via it. I know there is a city there somewhere, I've seen it out of the planes windows! Now if they opened a model shop at the airport! Regards Malcolm Waite Liverpool UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From ALROSS2@aol.com Subject Re 1950s destroyers If you're willing to accept about a 17% difference in scale (1/192 vs 1/160), you might consider the BlueJacket Shiprcrafter (www.bluejacketinc.com) kits of the KIDD (DD 661) and SAMUEL B. ROBERTS (DE 413) as a basis for conversion. Both types existed into the 1950s, albeit often in much-modified form. Fahey's SHIPS AND AIRCRAFT OF THE U.S. FLEET for 1950 lists 19 FLETCHERS and six BUTLERs (WGT ) still active, the latter as Naval Reserve training ships. In addition, there were a number of DER conversions active then. By 1958, WAGNER (DER 539) and VANDIVIER (DER 540) were still active on the Atlantic coast, along with the FMR (diesel) DER 133, 244, 251, 255, 318, 322, 326, 329, 333, 336, 38o3, 384, 390, 391, and 400. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "Michael Smith" Subject Carrier picture USS Saratoga (CV-3) sometime after she returned to Pearl in early June 1942 after refitting on the West Coast. Could be anytime after that - I'm not that familiar with the details of her later refits. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From "elisha w" Subject greek mystery ship USS IDAHO (BB23) and USS MISSISSIPPI (BB23) both had cage masts. They were completed in 1908 and sold to Greece in 1914 (new names KILKIS and LEMNOS). The two sisters were sunk by Nazi air attack in Apr 1941. One of them is your "mystery ship". Aryeh Wetherhorn Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject Re Subchasers and a mystery ship Those would be photos of the American predreadnought battleships of the Mississippi Class, the USS Mississippi (BB-23) and the USS Idaho (BB-24) which were sold to Greece on July 30, 1914 and became the coast defence ships Kilkis and and Lemnos. They served in the Royal Hellenic navy until April 1941 when they were sunk by the Luftwaffe divebombers at Salamis, Greece Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M. Div., M. S. I. S. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From SceneN3D@aol.com Subject Stern Lights Hi fellow members I was wondering whether any of you out there might have knowledge as to the lens colors used in the stern post light systems incorporated on US battlewagons circa 1941, specifically BB-39 , USS Arizona. Referring to Alan Chesley's updated profile plan view, she appears to have a vertical series of three lamps affixed to the stern post (flag staff). These fixtures are also present in several period photos of the ship, albeit in b & w. Any assistance is much appreciated. Smooth sailing Bob Bracci ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From "Phil Fuss" Subject Re Carrier Picture It is difficult to distinguish which of the two, but the carrier is either USS Lexington (CV-2) or USS Saratoga (CV-3). Both carriers were involved in Pacific operations in and out of Pearl prior to Dec 7,1941. Lex was sunk in the Coral Sea on May 8, 1942. Sara continued to the end of the war and was destroyed in the second Bikini Atoll bomb test on July 25, 1946. If there is a date on your photo you might be able to figure out which one she is. Phil Fuss ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From "DUCKMAN" Subject UNIDENTIFIED CARRIER HOWDY ALL, WOULD THAT NOT BE EITHER SARA OR LEX? DAVID IN DIXIE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From David Wells Subject Re Carrier Picture J.L.Pickstock@lboro.ac.uk wrote >> In my research of Pearl Harbor railroads I came across this pic of a carrier.(Railroad cars are circled) Anyone any ideas of her identity? << Looks like the Saratoga (CV-3) to me. It looks like she has 5"/L38 guns replacing the 8"ers, and the Lexington never got those. I suspect that this photo is from fairly early in the war, since her funnel hasn't been lowered yet. "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From Albert Zoltán Subject shipmodel Please visit my homepage. Yours sincerely Zoltan Albert http//amigos.amiga.hu/azka/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject Mystery photos From J.L.Pickstock@lboro.ac.uk >> In my research of Pearl Harbor railroads I came across this pic of a carrier.(Railroad cars are circled) Anyone any ideas of her identity? << USS Saratoga, by the 5" twins fore and aft of the island. Her Measure 21 appearance puts the photo in either 1942/43 or 1945. From RCClem@aol.com >> One of the more intrigueing photos that I cannot explain is a photo taken 9-15-1919 in Smyrna, Turkey. The caption is "Greek Battleship Firing Salute to Admiral Bristol". The photo clearly shows a Geek Flag at the foremast, just above the US flag. But I swear the ship has two tall cage masts, twin stacks, and a high pre-dreadnought bow. The stern appears to be very close to the waterline. I can only see one large turret at the bow. It LOOKS like a battleship but it also seems too short to be one. Without any research, it does not add up. Why the US flag under the Greek flag? << That would be either the Lemnos or Kilkis, the former USS Idaho and Mississippi. They were the last pre-dreadnoughts built by the US, and were undersized compared to the previous Connecticut class. They were sold the Greek Navy in 1914, and were sunk by German dive bombers early in WW2. Joseph Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume