Subject: SMML VOL 2548 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:05:45 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 USS North Carolina Deck Camouflage 2 Re Drawings of AH-10 Samaritan and CVE-93 Makin Island 3 Modern USN Aircraft Colors 4 More About Uniforms 5 If you're in New York this week 6 Re Kuznetsov CV 7 Re Admiral Kuznetsov 8 RN Weatherworks Colours 1901/1902 9 Re USN Uniforms 10 RN Weatherwork & Deck Colours in the 1950s 11 Re American Naval Uniforms 12 Leanders! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Kit for Sale 2 Coming Soon from WEM 3 WEM 1/72 Type VIIC set and 37mm Gun.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Kenneth Hagerup Subject USS North Carolina Deck Camouflage Did the USS North Carolina have overall Deck Blue decks, or were they camouflaged in Deck Blue and Ocean Gray when she was in MS32/18D? If the latter, does anyone have a copy of the deck pattern? Thanks, Kenneth Hagerup ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Phil Fuss" Subject Re Drawings of AH-10 Samaritan and CVE-93 Makin Island >> I have been looking for three years for plans for the hospital ship USS Samaritan AH-10. Can you please help? I am also looking for plans for CVE-93 USS Makin Island. << Makin Island was a Casablanca Class CVE. The Floating Dry Dock http//floatingdrydock.com has a very nice set of TFW drawings for Gambier Bay CVE-73, also a Casablanca Class. While there were numerous variations in this class (even on the same ship over time), I'm sure these could get you going in the right direction. They also have a set of reprint USN plans for Windham Bay CVE-92, but I haven't seen them to give a comment. Both sets are reasonable in price. While on the site, you could email Tom and see what he can do about Samaritan. Smooth sailing, Phil Fuss ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From David Wells Subject Modern USN Aircraft Colors Fellow SMMLlies I've just gotten some new carrier planes, and I was thinking of giving them the latest USN paint scheme. It occured to me that I don't know what colors used today. It looks awfully close to Haze Gray. Anybody know the current color? "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Leonard, Michael W" Subject More About Uniforms >> Thanks for the remarks about the Cracker Jack uniforms. Am I correct in my observation that the current dress blues are really black ? << Yes. >> They also seem to be made of some synthetic material. How do the present-day sailors like this material ? << Mostly they hate it. Navy dress uniforms are generally between 50% and 100% polyester, even officer and enlisted whites. The hideous 100% synthetic material even has an official name "Certified Navy Twill" (rhymes with swill). Some work uniforms and enlisted summer whites still include cotton. Overall, it seems to be a case of "better to look good than to feel good". Perhaps that's because the admirals who make these decisions ride around in air-conditioned limousines. MWL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Ant Phillips" Subject If you're in New York this week If your in New York this weekend why not pop down to see HMS Invincible. See the Royal Navy website for details http//www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/content.php3?page=1&article=805 Happy modelling Ant ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Markov Maxim" Subject Re Kuznetsov CV >> Anyone know the current status of this ship? Is it operational, and, if so, what fleet is it assigned to? << Kuznetsov should be operational at September 2004 after 4 years refit (maybe more) and of course he on most powerful russian fleet - Northern fleet. >> Not having a steam catapult, do they have a strike aircraft that can get off the deck with a decent ordnance load? << Yes, we HAVE! The name of this perfect bird is Su-33(ex Su-27K). >> What ever happened to the Kiev CV's? << They not CV in full mean of this world they aircraft carry heavy cruisers (russian abbreviation TAKR), they attack capabilities superior to attack capabilities of modern USA CV's but for that they paid this less AC's on the board also they smaller and they AC's wasn't so good as we (russians) want. Kiev was sold to China and in May 2000 was towed to Shanghai for refit in museum ship and tourist center. Minsk was sold (~$5 million) in 1995 to the South Korea for scrap, in 1998 resold to chinese «Minsk Aircraft Carrier Industry Company» and after refit turned into museum ship (opened in September 2000). Novorossiysk in January 1996 sold to south korean «Yang Distribution Co» for scrap and maybe scrapped in late 90-th. And most interesting fate of Admiral Gorshkov (ex-Baku) by the contract concluded in January 2004 with India he was presented (w/o any charge) to India but should be modernized on russian shipyard for $734 million also by this contract India should buy light shipborne fighters MiG-29K for sum around $823 million, modernization should be ended in 2005-2006, after that Gorshkov could carry 23 MiG-29K and 5 helicopters for ASW(Ka-28) and early radar warning(Ka-31) roles. Best regards, Maxim Markov ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "Robert Mosher" Subject Re Admiral Kuznetsov According to the following website http//topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/units.pl?lng=eng&unit=2302 the ship has the capacity to support 16 Yakovlev Yak-41M (NATO code name Freestyle), twelve Sukhoi Su-27K (NATO codename Flanker) fixed-wing aircraft and a range of helicopters including four Kamov Ka-27-LD (NATO codename Helix), 18 Kamov Ka-27 PLO, and two Ka-27-S. However, I was under the impression that it actually carried a suite of Su-25 Frogfoot aircraft and the SU-27 for air defense/interception - but that is old information. Robert A. Mosher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Brown, Michael \(SKM\)" Subject RN Weatherworks Colours 1901/1902 While I was in the Public Records Office in the U.K. recently looking up 1950s colours for the RN, I came across a bound folder containing the discussions on changing the RN colour scheme which took place in 1901/1902. Due to time I wasn’t able to read it fully. As well as Typed Minutes from various parts of the Admiralty there were hand written letters from various ships captain’s, admirals and other interested parties on the R.N.’s colour scheme and intended replacement. At the time they described the basic colour scheme as black hull, white superstructure and yellow (not buff) funnels. A series of tests with different ships and schemes were ordered. The ones I noted were as follows. 1901 Benbow, Spanker and Bellona tested painted dull grey being 3lbs of black to 112 lbs of white. (I wonder would 3 part black to 112 parts "old English white or WW2 WA white" result in a reasonable match?) Hannibal to be painted a dull greenish grey (Sounds a bit like RAN grey to me!) In 1901, Torpedo Boats tested a light brown colour. 1902 Goliath tested Light Grey being 8lbs of black to 112lbs of white lead and Dark Grey being 20lbs of Black to 112lbs of white lead. Not stated if at different times or if two tone. Talbot tested with 6lbs of black to 112 lbs of white plus 5lbs of Brunswick Green. (Is this greenish grey again?) There were comments on file from various ships captains, admirals etc. on the trials. These varied from stating that the grey worked well especially in the Med and at night. Black hulled ships with white superstructure and yellow funnels stood out more than grey especially at night. The French Mediterranean Squadron used a standard grey colour and looked impressive at sea. HM ships in grey looked disreputable and unkempt! Following the tests, an instruction went out in 1902 from the Commander in Chief, HM Ships & Vessels Devonport stating that after consideration, the two most suitable colours for HM ships were black & grey as follows 1) Hull To be black from gunwale to waterline Bottom So far as it is visible, to be (in peace time), grey up to the top of copper sheathing or the painted in "Waterline". In wartime, however, the grey is to be blacked over. Masts Masts and everything on them, top, yards, gaffs, derricks and booms to be black Funnels To be black Superstructure Everything else above the gunwale, superstructures of all kinds, boats decks, bridges, ventilators (if any), boats davits, anchor davits, capstans, awning stanchions, hatches and coamings, main armament and mountings on quarter deck and forecastle etc., to be grey. White Ships Ships which are now painted white for climatic reasons, to be painted grey. Masted Ships Such ships as still carry sails to retain " spar colour’ for their masts and yards. If used in war, they would probably strip to lower masts, which could then be painted black in any event. As regards, ships boats, it is considered the colour they are to be painted in peacetime may be left to the Captain of the ship, on the distinct understanding that, in wartime, all boats are to be black leaded. It is further considered that the question of whether ships are to have ribbons painted in (black on grey or grey on black) in order to lessen the apparent height of hull or superstructure may also be left to the discretion of the captain, but all such ribbons would have to be painted out for war purposes. The grey colour to be used is to be a mixture of black and white paints only, and is to be composed of the following proportions. Black paint 3 1/2 lbs and white paint 1/2lb. (Again would a weight/proportion mix of current approximate these colours?) Before implementing the instructions, HM Ships Magnificent, Niobe, Implacable and Benbow are to be painted in accordance with the instructions as a trial. On 5th August 1902, an amending minute was issued stating "that ships which are to be newly commissioned this Autumn are to be painted grey, the selected colour being obtained by a mixture of 6lbs white and 11ozs black. It is to be understood that this is to be the final shade, and care is to be taken that the ground does not shew through to modify the colour". (I assume ground means undercoat.) Now have some fun with those colours. Light brown torpedo boats even! Michael Brown TF72 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From AFisherJr@aol.com Subject Re USN Uniforms Do sailors still wear form-fitting 'tailor-mades' with embroidered dragons in the sleeves? Whenever a ship pulled into a port in the Far East there was always a rush made to get tailor-mades ... but don't get caught wearing one during personnel inspection! Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From M Brown Subject RN Weatherwork & Deck Colours in the 1950s On a recent visit to the PRO, I reviewed a file which was a report on Painting & Preservation Problems on the Far East Station by Admiralty Staff and Imperial Chemical Industries in 1956. The visit arose after a similar one to the Mediterranean Station to investigate problems with the new one part pre-mixed grey paint which had recently been introduced. This must mean BS381C 697, Light Admiralty Grey must have replaced AP507C about this time. Other records indicate that 1955/56 was about the time the change over took place. The paint on both stations was peeling off and some C Class destroyers in Singapore had been repainted in the old light grey which was mixed by Singapore stores. The report came to the conclusion that the problems arose from poor preparation of the metal to be painted as the one part pre-mixed paint was not as “forgiving” of poor preparation and undercoating as the old type of paint. To compound the problem, some ships were mixing exterior and interior paints together and adding varnish to improve the glossiness! The report recommended that the Royal Navy introduce a painting manual to standardise the manner in which RN ships were painted. The report also recommended that the Navy standardise the deck colours. It mentions that the some ships’ decks had to be repainted monthly to maintain a good appearance. In the Far East, the result of standing water and storms resulted in poor paintwork especially as the decks were rarely kept clear of traffic to enable the paint to harden properly. The report states that the Admar paint used was designed as an outer bottom protective paint not as deck paint. As such it had no non-skid properties. They go on to state that Red and Chocolate Admar were recently introduced as a weatherdeck coating with some success. They recommend that the Admiralty endeavour to obtain a supply of Grey and Green (damn > no description of the grey but they do mention that the primer is graphite but whether this is an ingredient or colour isn’t mentioned). Further on they state that on smaller ships in particular (going from some of their other comments this means destroyers downwards), the deck colour is usually green but is at the discretion of the Senior Officer of the Squadron and that it would be better if deck colours were unified. The problem now being that in one paragraph they say that Admar was used but not available in green, in another they state that Brunswick Green was used on the decks of Consort and Conmcord. Were they using “normal” naval exterior paint for decks? Epikote is mentioned but only that they intend to trial the system. Vitracote had been trialed in Comus and Consort and found to be hard wearing but slippery when wet. Centaur had trialed Tanctecol without success. The Far East Station listed the following Pattern Paints in stock. 4318, 4940, 4941C, 4942, 4950A, 5340, 5341, 5342, 5343, 5360, 5361, 5361, 5362 I recently got a list from Chatham Dockyard recently of some of their Pattern Numbers and the BS381C equivalent as well as a note about where they were used. These were Admiralty BS381C Pattern Equivalent Number Colour Type & Use 3550 443 Salmon Pink Enamel 3551 356 Golden Yellow Non skid exterior Aircraft Carrier's Deck 3552 361 Light Stone Enamel 3554 445 Venetian Red Enamel 3555 104 Azure Blue External Paint Damage Control Marking 3556 414 Golden Brown Enamel 3557 537 Signal Red External Paint Damage Control Marking 3559 557 Light Orange Enamel 4158 632 Dark Admiralty Grey Non skid exterior Flight Decks 4940 White External Paint 5340 Black External Paint 5360 444 Terracotta Non slip deck Not specified 5361 267 Traffic Green Non slip deck Not specified 4941C 697 Light Grey External Paint Sides, upperworks & funnels 219 Sage Green Non skid exterior Aircraft Carrier's Deck Markings 358 Light Buff External Paint Surveying Ship Funnels 226 Mid Brunswick Green External Paint Admiral's Barge 105 Oxford Blue External Paint Ship's boats 218 Grass Green Enamel Damage Control Marking 385 Light Biscuit Enamel 692 Smoke Grey Enamel 355 Lemon Enamel So does anyone out there know of Admar or the actual colours used? How about a full list of the Admiralty Pattern Numbers? Anyone ever heard tell of chocolate decks? Red was known to be used in the Far East and is mentioned in some books but I haven’t seen chocolate mentioned before. Michael Brown TF72 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "David Griffith" Subject Re American Naval Uniforms Dear All, OK, so I'm an ignorant Brit, but why is the traditonal style of American Naval uniform called "Cracker Jack"? To us on this side of the Atlantic, and of a "certain age", Crackerjack was the name of a children's television programme of the early 1960s, involving quizzes, pencils and cabbages. (Please, don't bother asking, you really don't want to go there!) Regards, David Griffith (of that certain age) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From "Andy Airlie" Subject Leanders! Hello all, Mikes Information sheet is a must have for anyone interested in Leanders, concise and easy to follow. Arrising from that, I can only think of the Airfix 1/600 kit that is available, does anyone know of other kits that are on the market?, and if not what about WEM or someone making one in 1/350...surely there must be substantial interest in this class and the evolutions they went through during their operational lives. Best wishes, Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Subject Kit for Sale Greetings List mates An aircraft modeler friend asked me to post the following kit for sale. "I have a Trumpeter 1/200 Sovremenny that I'm trying to sell, it has the full WEM photo-etch set included. The kit sells for $85 and the PE set, as best I can determine is $73 (40 GBP), or a combined total of $158. I am offering it for $120US. Terms would be payment in advance, shipping TBD with the buyer and EXTRA over the listed sale price." He can be reached at pcotcher@mindspring.com. Or if you would prefer that I act as intermediary, contact me at hwimmer@bellsouth.net. Thanks, John Collins Franklin, TN, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From John Snyder Subject Coming Soon from WEM PE 7210, 1/72 Douglas TBD Devastator Detail Set (I know, it's a wingy-thingy, but it IS naval!); PE 7211, 1/72 U-boat Torpedo Loading Set, including 2 resin G7 Torpedoes with PE for G7a or G7e variants; PE 7212, Resin G7 Torpedoes (x2), including PE for G7a or G7e variants, suitable for use with the Revell 1/72 U-boat, Revell 1/72 S-100, or Airfix E-boat. Pre-order yours now. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http//WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "WEM" Subject WEM 1/72 Type VIIC set and 37mm Gun.. Hi Chaps, Query.. in the AOTS Type VIIC book, there is a drawing of a 37mm gun of a declared scale of 1/50. It clearly isn't. We calculate it to be around 1/30. Can anyone confirm the exact scale as it would be nice to get our forthcoming gun the right size! OK.. here's the news on the Type VIIC set All parts have been drawn by the Mad Maestro, Peter Hall, and are, as we speak, being assembled into frets of different thicknesses. Until the finished size is known though, we still cannot give you a price! 1/72 TYPE VIIC U-BOAT PE PARTS 20mm Fittings Aft Torpedo Loading Hatch Amidships Deck Hatches Attack Periscope Mount Footbars Balast Tank Vents Biscay Cross Bollard Tops Bow Lower Cable Cutter Bow Torpedo Tube Doors Bow Upper Cable Cutter Cable Tensioners Compass & Engine Telegraph Dial Con Tower Top Side Vent Grills Conning Tower Hatch Mechanism Conning Tower Markings Conning Tower Side Vent Grills Deck Hatch Hinges Diesel Exhaust Diving Tank Valve Outlets Fore Deck Hatches Forward Torpedo Loading Hatch FuMo 61 Antenna FuMo29 Antennas FuMo30 Radar Antenna Gun Deck Hatch Gun Handwheels Hatch Handles Large Casing Access Hatch Naxos Antenna Periscope Compass Repeater Periscope Stiffeners Replacement Rail 82/83 Replacement Rail 85/87 Replacement Rails 84 Replacement Rails 86/88 Retractable Bollard Plates Small Stern Access Hatch Snorkel Housing Crosses Torpedo Aimer Sight Bezel Torpedo Aimer Sight Footbars Pretty amazing, hey! You can, of course, go here to order this set http//www.whiteensignmodels.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_1_72_Scale_Photo_Etch_22.html Cheers, Caroline Snyder, Director, White Ensign Models Ltd http//WhiteEnsignModels.com For the latest news from WEM http//www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/whats_new1.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume