Subject: SMML VOL 2596 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:29:46 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Uboats in the RCN On the Inside 2 Naval Review 3 Re John Snyder on putty 4 Unusual A/S weapons for the Type 15 fast frigates of the RN 5 wingy-thingy modellers 6 Re IJN Atago Colors 7 Re Aluminum etc 8 HMS Relentless 9 Navalis 10 Greek Warship/"last" Armored Cruiser 11 Reference - Miscellaneous -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 4 1/350 Ship kits for Sale 2 Ship Kits for sale in Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject Uboats in the RCN On the Inside http//www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/uboats/ Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Bruno Gire" Subject Naval Review Hi folks ! Just to drop some words to remind the Allied landings on the French Riviera, 60 years ago (August 14-15th), involving 150,000 US, British , Canadian, Free French and French Empire troops aboard 2,000+ ships. On this occasion, a naval review (the fisrt in 10 years) took place on sunday 15th in the Toulon bay. 29 naval ships from France, USA, UK, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia steamed around the Charles de Gaulle nuclear carrier. You can see fine pictures on http//www.netmarine.net/forces/operatio/revue2004/index.htm A curiosity on the pictures, one can clearly see the Charles de Gaulle listing slightly to starboard (1 degree) this was done using her special stabilization device (Cogite) to allow all the VIP aboard to watch the review. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Pirie and Kathy" Subject Re John Snyder on putty A quick caviat on superglue debonder. It doesn't get along very well with resin. If you are going to use it on resin, keep it very tightly on the glue seam and don't let it stay on more than a minute or two. Wash it off. It tends to irreparably soften resin. In fact, it can give resin the consistancy of, well, putty. I think I would rather try something else. A sadder but wiser, Pirie Sublett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "lamkeel" Subject Unusual A/S weapons for the Type 15 fast frigates of the RN I knew that I would have to bite. Les Brown and I have been trying to find an answer to this four barrelled A/S ahead throwing weapon for some months now. I have seen the original model, which I assume to be M.O.D.(Navy) as well as the photographs. All are of the early 50's era. We were at the model show at "Explosion", the Priddy's Hard Naval Armament museum at Gosport. I had some original drawings for a Vickers ahead throwing weapon in my store of "Drawings to redraw - one day when time permits". I passed the info. on to Les but it proved to be a single barrel weapon that I would assume was superceded by the Mark 10 or Limbo. So we do communicate. (We just dont tell you lot)! I'm still working hard on Volume 3 (The final Volume). Now working on text. One recent find was a G/A drawing and photographs of a training mounting for coastal forces gunnery ratings, to teach them about sighting power operated mountings and the then new, Type 14 Gyro Gun Sight. A simple braced framework painted in Battleship Grey (it says). It has three seats, three large open sights and two Type 14's. Anyone have any infornmation on this equipment. All designed and contructed by Marine Mountings Ltd, of Swindon, Wiltshire who built the RN's first power operated twin 0.5" Mark V Gun Tub and followed on with 20mm, 2 pounder and 6 pounder Power Operated mountings. Oh for more hours in the day! Yours "Aye" John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Iain Wyllie Subject wingy-thingy modellers Hi John, Since I've been dabbling with model ships I've come across this expression several times but I'm not sure why it is used. I am an aircraft modeller and I've never heard ship modellers referred to as "floaty-boaty modellers"! At any rate, glad to hear you guys are picking up tips from the junior service and that we are not mutually exclusive after all! What is needed badly is for some of the mainstream kit manufacturers to produce some decent RN Carriers of WW2 vintage. I've just spent an inordinate amount of time turning the Revell Ark Royal and the awful Aoshima Illustrious into passably accurate replicas and it would be nice to see some kits produced where the manufacturer had actually done some research on the subject. I can't see why the Royal Navy is the worst covered of all the major protagonists by the mainstream kit manufacturers; apart from KGV and Hood [yawn] where are the kits of other British battleships and cruisers, never mind carriers? Yes, I know you can get several in resin but these are more the province of the "serious" modeller willing to pay equally serious money. Iain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Daniel A. Kaplan" Subject Re IJN Atago Colors >> Ok guys, the instructions on the Pit Road 1/700 Atago "1941" suggest that the ship was in overall Kure grey. John Snyder's new "Imperial Japanese Navy Greys A Ship-by-Ship Compilation" suggest that for 3rd Savo she would have been Yokosuka Grey. Comments from the peanut gallery? Which way would you go. I'd like to portray 3rd Savo. << According to her TROM, she was in for refit April 22 - May 21, 1942 at Yokosuka. This was her last extensive refit before participating in all the Guadalcanal actions. So, probability is very high that John is correct. Dan Kaplan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From BRADFORD CHAUCER Subject Re Aluminum etc For small qualities of materials, try Metal express http//www.metalexpress.net MSC http//www.mscdirect.com/ Machinist-Materials http//www.machinist-materials.com/ Tap Plastics http//www.tapplastics.com/ Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Mike Potter Subject HMS Relentless I think that the unusual weapons on the model of HMS Relentless show the original modeler’s imagination at work or at play. It’s conceivable that the modeled 4-barrel weapon represents a weather shield over a standard 40mm quadruple gun mount with out-of-scale diameters for the gun barrels. The RN had no ASW weapon of that configuration in development. As for actual Type 15 frigates as designed in the 1940s, I think that three considerations rule out any weapon in that location First, Norman Friedman in The Postwar Naval Revolution (1986) described the origins of the Type 15 frigate. It mentions no weapons in the model’s locations, whereas it does cover other weapons considered for these ships, specifically torpedo types Bidder and Fancy. In May at the NMM’s Brass Foundry annex I studied one of the same original files that Norman used for this book, albeit for a different frigate conversion (Type 62). His account matched the source file, so I trust his accuracy about the Type 15 frigate. (For the record He wrote a nice quote for my own book’s jacket.) Second, any weapon in that location obscures the view forward from the pilot house. Similarly the Type 15 design made no provision for a shelter for a gun crew for that location. Third, in 1945 the RN hypothesized that the new fast U-boats after attacking would speed submerged at 17 knots into the direction of the waves to slow a pursuing escort, which would risk damage from slamming. Postwar the RN expected that the Russians too would build fast submarines. The thin bow and deep draft of the Type 12 frigate were intended to defy such a tactic. The Type 15 frigate design was analogous in that the bow would be very wet, and thus a poor location for any weapon. The RN’s designs for ASW frigate Types 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 all left the ‘A’ location empty on the main deck. Type 18 had a sponson elevated one deck level. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sped into heavy seas to escape from HMS Renown in 1940 and Scharnhorst attempted the same maneuver against HMS Duke of York in 1943. However, I haven't read any study that late-war fast U-boats actually did this. Instead toward war’s end U-boats appeared to favor loitering near river estuaries and other shallows where they could hide on the bottom between attacks. In 1982 the Argentine submarine in the Falklands similarly hid on the sea bed. Different subject Thanks for all the advice about how to fill seams in kit-bashed plastic models! I'm modeling several never-built RN designs in 1/600 scale, to capitalize on WEM’s parts and Airfix’s off-the-shelf kits. Projects include a Type 62 frigate, a Type 18 frigate, and a Sea Slug-armed cruiser. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Peter Chant" Subject Navalis Does any one know what has happened to Navalis (Sami Arim)? Their website for 1250 brass and decals has been down for a while now. Peter Plymouth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Tom Ruprecht Subject Greek Warship/"last" Armored Cruiser I'm new to ships, but after reading the above thread, I hope that I'm not being an upstart to differ with the statements that the Greek ship is the "last armored cruiser." Aren't the Aurora (St. Petersburg (?), Russia) and the Olympia (Philadelphia, USA) also armored cruisers? Do I need to be set straight on this? Rupe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "Reid, John (AFIT)" Subject Reference - Miscellaneous Shane, re the unidentified pix. Some few comments http//smmlonline.com/reference/misc_ship/nhsa/qebb01.jpg has to be HMS Malaya about 1944. a. Single large trunked funnel, camouflaged, 6 visible 6” casemates therefore either Barham or Malaya (by wartime, Warspite only had 4 casemates and a different funnel, QE and Valiant no casemates) b. 3 visible Mk-19 4” twins including one on aircraft deck – therefore Malaya, after the third mounting each side was added but before the 6” were removed for weight compensation. Breyer has exact dates of both these mods, will look it up if you care, to give a “between X and Y“ date. http//smmlonline.com/reference/misc_ship/carrier01.jpg has to be Saratoga, since Lex was sunk after the 8” turrets were landed but before gaining the 5” twins before and abaft the island - a twin 5”/38 is clearly visible just to apparent left of the massive stack. About 1H1943, I think, because of relatively small number of 20mm, e.g. no high gallery on stack. http//smmlonline.com/reference/misc_ship/nhsa/royalsovereignclassbb01.jpg and http//smmlonline.com/reference/misc_ship/nhsa/royalsovereignclassbb02.jpg both look to me very much like Warspite, not an R class at all. The 6” casemates are too close together and too far forward. The aircraft cranes look like the right shape too (Rs didn’t have cranes P&S at that midships location, but derricks for boats, apart from Royal Oak, sunk before getting a repaint). Fascinating views of the Type 15 model. Looks to me like some ATW similar in concept to USA’s Weapon Alfa, but which didn’t get far.... Given Alfa’s maintenance problems, good call, RN! Reminds me of the original Triang Minic 11200 model of the type 21 with a 4.5 turret both fore and aft – which was planned at one stage but dropped before steel was cut. JJR ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Billgior@aol.com Subject 4 1/350 Ship kits for Sale Hi Everyone I have Four ship kits for sale in 1/350 scale Resin & Plastic and here they are, (1.) Trumpeter 1/350 USS Essex $80.00 + shipping. (2.) Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet $80.00 + shipping. (3.) ISW 1/350 HMS Rodney British Battleship WL $380.00 + shipping. (4.) ISW 1/350 USS Vestal $179.00 + shipping. I have instock the photo-etch for the USS Essex and USS Hornet you can e-mail me at (billgior@aol.com) or by phone at (313)295-0293. Thank You Sincerely, Bill Giordano ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From cge1971@webone.com.au Subject Ship Kits for sale in Australia Hi All, I have the following for sale in Australia ONLY. Prices are in Australian Dollars, and DO NOT include postage. Please email me direct. Airfix 1/600 Falklands Ships $15 Dragon 1/350 Spruance $25 Ticonderoga $25 Panda 1/350 Winston Churchill (Arleigh Burke Class) $35 Trumpeter 1/350 Sovremenny 956 $40 Tamiya 1/350 New Jersy $60 Thanks, Chris Evenden Canberra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume