Subject: SMML VOL 2632 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 01:05:44 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Rear Admiral Rock Torrey aka John Wayne 2 Re High School math revisited 3 Re Model Ship Journal 4 Re Renwal Kits 5 Revell space recovery ships/1350 CV-5 6 Re High School math revisited -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 For Sale 2 WWII BATTLESHIPS/CRUISERS BOOKS FOR SALE (over 70) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Robert Mosher" Subject Re Rear Admiral Rock Torrey aka John Wayne Okay, guys, I may want to vote for John Kerry but I can still stick up for John Wayne when he can't speak for himself. In the film "In Harms Way" - Wayne is in tactical command of a small island hopping campaign in the southwest Pacific. Having cleared the Japanese from the first island sought for an airstrip, he is preparing to island hop to the next island in the group large enough to base B-17s on - the thinking as explained in the movie is that the aerial range of patrolling B-17s will enable US forces to see everything within the range of the bombers and having seen it, attack it. But they find out that the Japanese are assembling a large amphibious force with heavy escorts apparently intending to counterattack US forces and regain control of the island group. Because of a "suicide" one-way flight in a B-25 (flown by Kirk Douglas) Wayne knows that the Japanese force includes Yamato, and with its accompanying heavy cruisers, light cruisers, and destroyers - the Japanese outgun the surface units available to Wayne and he's not going to get any help for his backwater campaign. He decides to engage the Japanese force as it sails through a narrow passage in the island group - where the American submarines can lay mines and his PT boats can ambush the Japanese in the restricted waters. Although the Japanese force is whittled down a bit, Yamato and enough ships survive and keep coming. With no other means available to defend his landing forces and amphibious ships, Wayne attacks with his lighter force (Admiral Torrey having established himself as an aggressive commander early in the film) knowing that he is outgunned but also knowing that he has no choice. The overall background theme of the movie is how a cautious, conservative peacetime US Navy transformed itself into a wartime navy that took chances when necessary. This is driven home when Wayne wakes up on a hospital ship at the end of the movie to learn that his ship was sunk and he has lost on leg - expecting to be at the least retired from the Navy or even court-martialed (again) he is told that he will be given a new wooden leg and immediately sent back to command a new task force, the Navy needing admirals who fight - and oh, by the way, he won the battle because the Yamato and its surviving ships turned back in the face of Wayne's all out attack. In this sense, at least, the film does reflect some of the real events of the first year of the war in the Pacific. Robert A. Mosher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Fernando, Yohan" Subject Re High School math revisited >>Therefore, if John Wayne could have borrowed a Newport News with her auto loading 9x8", or even better a Worcester with her auto 12x6", he probably could probably turn Yamato into a floating junk pile. Not sink her though, without some tin cans using their torpedoes.... << Not quite. Larger guns (in any respectable number) have two big advantages over any number of smaller guns- 1) range and 2) hitting power of each single projectile. What good are your 12x6" guns when you can't get in range to hit your target? While the ship with the smaller guns tries to close the range, the ship with the larger, far reaching guns has plenty of time to start scoring hits. Also, the previous comment about 8x8" guns equaling a single 16" gun is also wrong. While the combined volume and weight of the shells may be equivalent, a single hit by a 16" projectile has greater capability for armor penetration and damage than 8 8" hits. You don't have any chance of piercing say 16" of armor with 8" guns regardless of how many you have on your ship, while even a single 16" gun gives you a chance. So with a smaller number of larger guns, you can hit your target at longer ranges before you come under fire yourself, your hits will be from plunging fire striking the thinner deck armor of your target rather than the thicker, vertical belt, AND each individual hit will have the potential for greater damage. Your target, the ship equipped with the larger number of small guns, won't have a chance to exploit any of the advantages it may have. This is basically the reasoning that went into the design of the all-big-gun ship (ie- Dreadnought) and was still valid in WWII as long as one is confined to discussing single ship-to-ship engagements. Arguments including supporting and screening ships are irrelevant as each side could be screened in the same manner, essentially canceling each other out. In a single ship-to-ship open water engagement, it would be suicide to go up against any dreadnought-class ship in anything else besides another dreadnought. Worcester/Newport News surviving an engagement with Yamato... I just don't see it. Yohan Fernando ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Phil Stewart Subject Re Model Ship Journal >> Has anybody else received their copy through subscription for this publication of late? After Model Ship Journal decided not to handle it's only subscription service at the start of 2004, Chris Decker of Trident Hobbies was only to keen to pick up the service and offer it to his customers. I paid for a two year international sub back in February only to have received one copy since then. Have I been duped or is this service just behind the times? << Have you contacted Çhris Decker? I've never had any problem with Trident Hobbies--though I guess they've just moved, possibly throwing things in disarray. I'd guess disarray rather than duping, personally... Let us know how the problem gets worked out! Best, Phil Stewart ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Roland Mar Subject Re Renwal Kits >> OK, since everybody's talking about these old things, here's one I remember I had when I was a kid, though I'm not sure if it was Renwall or what. Angled-deck Essex-class, no larger than 1/700, probably smaller. The distinctive thing that I remember about it was that it had a little plug of a Mercury capsule that sat on the flight deck near the island. << TO Daniel Kurts IIRC, and I may not, that was a Lindberg kit, "foot-long" series. I think the version I built as a kid was supposed to be HORNET, and I seem to remember some really tiny F-8 Crusaders aboard along with the Mercury capsule. Does that sound right to you? Roland Mar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From jodie Subject Revell space recovery ships/1350 CV-5 hello all -- Daniel Kurtz wrote >> OK, since everybody's talking about these old things, here's one I remember I had when I was a kid, though I'm not sure if it was Renwall or what. Angled-deck Essex-class, no larger than 1/700, probably smaller. The distinctive thing that I remember about it was that it had a little plug of a Mercury capsule that sat on the flight deck near the island. << Sounds like the Revell USS Wasp issue of the Essex-class kit, which came with a Gemini re-entry module, complete with little flotation collar. This was appropriate since Wasp recovered the most missions of the Gemini program (GT-4, 6, 7, 9 and 12). The Wasp kit also came with an odd air wing -- not only Sea Kings, Trackers and A-4s (which were permissible, since CVSs often carried a small detachment of Scooters), but also some F-8 Crusaders. Nicely done, but Wasp never had 'em. The later USS Hornet issue of the kit had a very nice, CVS-appropriate air wing (Trackers, Sea Kings and some darn nice E-1 Tracers) as well as a little Apollo command module. I had both Wasp and Hornet kits in my younger days, and still kick myself that I didn't take better care of 'em.... On another subject, thanks to all of you who offered help with the Trumpeter Yorktown conversion I'm considering. I'll be pressing on in 1350; I already have the kit (it was a gift), but I'm just trying to find something different to do with it, and since between-the-wars stuff intrigues me...well, you see where it led. Thanks to all of you for your help! jodie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Frank Bowron" Subject Re High School math revisited I think that the lesson of the Bismark/Hood engagement was that the best way to win a surface ship fight was to drop a shell through the thinner deck armour into your opponent's magazine, before they closed the range sufficiently to open fire with their own guns. KG5 and Rodney couldn't sink the Bismark with 14" main armament partly because they were so close they were firing horizontally and couldn't penetrate the belt armour. Admittedly, it was a hit from Rodney's main armament that put the Bismark's director out of action and made it safe for the cruisers to close in and use torpedoes, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in an 8" cruiser that tried to get close enough to hit an undamaged battleship's fire directors. The cruiser would be under fire from the battleship's main armament for about half an hour before getting close enough to use its own weapons. In the world of big gun battleships, gun size really did matter, but range was the deciding factor. Also, don't forget that Bismark had very good radar fire directors as well as the opticals. Hood was under radar observation long before she sighted the Bismark visually. It wasn't just a lucky hit, Bismark had Hood's range and speed calculated perfectly and they were very good at High School math! Straddle with the first salvo and hit with the second and we weren't even close enough to get a proper shot away... Cheers, Frank ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Tom Detweiler" Subject For Sale Ahem. Now that you're discussing old kidhood kits-- If anyone is looking for a challenge, I have one of those notorious Revell ("Authentikit!") Iowa class battleships with the flat bottom, etc. on it. It is a genuine early 60's model kit my Dad and I put together, and I was only keeping it for nostalgic reasons but no longer feel the need. It's the "box scale" size whatever that was, something wierd like 1/570 or so. The hull and superstructure are intact and the big guns have all the parts, some of the little ones might be missing. I'll include any and all parts I still have and toss in a TOY aircraft carrier with it, too. It's just sitting out next to my hot tub and someone may as well make something of it before my pigeons knock it off onto the floor. If you're interested contact me off list and we'll discuss cost or shipping. Tom Detweiler, Grass Valley CA USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Gary Mansfield" Subject WWII BATTLESHIPS/CRUISERS BOOKS FOR SALE (over 70) Dear All, I have over 70 naval books for sale on Battleships/Cruisers of WWII. Some are brand new, nearly new and some are very rare, check HMS HOOD website! List available. (I am changing my interest to Victorian Era/Pre-Dreadnought and small warships of WWII, wanted "German Coastal Forces of World War Two" by M J Whitley, publisher Arms & Armour 1992 [out of business}. Yes I have searched the web!!). I am in the U.K. (Derbyshire) in a wheelchair (stroke) so please be patient! E-Mail garynelson.mansfield@tiscali.co.uk Kind regards GARY MANSFIELD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at http//apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume