Subject: SMML VOL 2686 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:47:38 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 HMAS Australia (2) - County with 4" Mk XIX guns on weather deck 2 Re BB23 Mississippi 3 Re Post-Renaissance era vessels 4 Re Oversized Flags 5 USS Saratoga (CV-60) 6 Re Oversized flags 7 Re Post-Renaissance era vessels ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Reid, John (AFIT)" Subject HMAS Australia (2) - County with 4" Mk XIX guns on weather deck Every County group 8" cruiser had her 4" AA guns on the shelter deck, mostly built with 4 singles near the aircraft. Most were eventually refitted with 4 twins in Mk XIX gunhouses, and in every case but one, also on the shelter deck. The exception was HMAS Australia, refitted in 1939, where the guns were located on the weather deck. I have seen many photos but never a plan of her in that state - does anybody know of a plan? John Reid ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Simon Scheuer" Subject Re BB23 Mississippi >> Can anyone tell me what to expect in WARSHIP PROFILE No. 39 dealing with << Probably too much. Why don't you get Classic Warship's Warship Pictorial on the class. Much better reference. I've got an extra if you want it. Simon Scheuer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Ken Goldman" Subject Re Post-Renaissance era vessels Wasn't Mary Rose built by Henry VIII? Lower deck open gunports is often given as the cause of the Wasa's sinking, is this also beloved true for Mary Rose? Ken Goldman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Ron Hillsden Subject Re Oversized Flags >> 1. The flags present a lot of surface area to the wind, especially the one on the stern is often as large as a mainsail. Is there ever enough wind to spread it to its full glory? 2. What about the stability of the ship? Surely that much untethered surface forces must make keeping stability pretty chancy << 1. The flags were made of a much lighter material than sailcloth, so they would lift and spread more easily than the sails. If you look around today, there are lots of flags in excess of 20 feet flying on pretty standard looking poles, etc. The action would be similar - they move and stir in a gentle breeze - you still recognize it. 2. There would not be a significant effect on stability. Sails are tethered at all corners to catch the wind and work as an airfoil. Flags are just attached at one edge, so there is little resistance. Its the old "hold your hand out of a moving car window" trick to feel how wind resistance differs on the flat to the side of your hand. A good illustration of how little effort is created is the modern vandal proof flagpole. A lanyard runs up through the interior of the pole to the top of the flag. There is a weight at the bottom of the flag to hold the front edge of the flag perpendicular to the ground. The weight is probably between 2 to 5 pounds. And it doesn't move much in a storm. Ron Hillsden Victoria BC ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Glenn and Kelly Neklason" Subject USS Saratoga (CV-60) Hi All Does anyone know if the lower half of Sara's island was black in 1985-1986? Does anyone have pictures of her island during that time frame? Thank you, Glenn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Reynold.Oh@defence.gov.au Subject Re Oversized flags To Kelvin Mok 1. I'm not a sailor, but I claim to be a logically-thinking land-lubber. The large flags should have some effect on the ship - witness the way the wind can make laundry pull on the clothsline, sometimes quite strongly. Put such an item at the top of a long pole (= mast) and it will exert a fair bit of leverage. 2. A flag is free to float in the direction to-which the wind is blowing, whereas a sail is held at an angle to the wind - except, of course, in a following wind where the ship is sailing in the exact direction of the wind. A flag is attached to a ship by one or two corners - which describes a line. A sail is secured to the ship by three or more corners - which describes a plain. This makes the sail more efficient than a flag, at catching the wind and transfering the wind's energy to the ship. It also means that the sail can be controlled. 3. Put these two concepts together. A sail that detaches from some of its lines (a run-away sail) will still catch a lot of wind and still propel the ship. But the crew cannot control where the run-away sail is pushing them. It's uncontrolled flapping may damage other parts of the ship or cause the ship to capsize. So the crew's responce should be to turn the ship with the wind (= to run before the wind, or make it a following wind), then remove the run-away sail. 4. Sailing is a science that cannot be explained in a few-hundred words. It is a practical art that requires much hands-on experience. Incidentally, did you know that a westerly wind originates from the west and blows from west to east, but a westerly current originates in the east flows from east to west. George, out. TX ends ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Richard Sweeney Subject Re Post-Renaissance era vessels >> I'm something of an 'expert' on this topic, having two degrees in history and done some rather extensive research on the subject of post-Renaissance era warships. It's important to remember that this era -- which saw the construction of the galley, galleon, and 'modern' wooden warship - had one foot in the Middle Ages and one foot in the modern era. It was very common for the commander of a warship to design a flag that not only incorporated the 'national' colors, but his own family crest as well as religious symbology if desired. There were oftentimes various 'sponsors' flags that were part of the display, as well as regional flags and a 'national' flag if one had been designed, an admiral's banner, a king's banner, as well as a Papal banner if a ship was so 'blessed'. One only has to go to the sinking of the "Mary Rose" to see how a combination of too much sail and open gunports - and, perhaps, too many flags and standards - could contribute to the sinking of a warship. The capsizing of the Mary Rose has been somewhat-officially attributed to open gunports on the lower deck - however, if you look at the more-or-less-official drawings of the vessel from the era, you'll see many of the pennants and standards you described - -and Henry V was VERY fond of displaying his family's crest from multiple mastheads!! Perhaps the reason that this hasn't surfaced in too many accounts is that many of these banners -- especially the long ones -- were made from silk. This would account for the ability of the banner to unfurl even in a light wind, and would also make the banner so lightweight that it would not be a hindrance to the operation of a ship even in a heavy sea. Silk was used for flags even during the Middle Ages, as trade with the East had not abated much from the Roman era. Your comment is intriguing -- although there's no 'official' statement I've ever found or seen that would attribute a sinking or instability to the display of flags. << A very good answer, and if you wish another reference you might cite The Royal ship Vasa. But one point... I believe you meant Henry VIII not Henry V. As Henry VIII was watching from Southsea CAstle as Mary rose went down. Rich Sweeney ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume