Subject: SMML VOL 2737 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:06:38 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 paper model templates 2 IJN destroyer camouflage 3 Re Can any one help and up date? 4 card models 5 The color of the sea 6 Re Card models 7 IJN Destroyer Camouflage 8 extra parts for paper models 9 Re IJN Destroyer Camouflage 10 Kikutsuki camouflage 11 Re IJN Destroyer Camouflage 12 Re Trumpeter O'Brien 13 Re IJN destroyer camouflage 14 Interesting report from WWII USN Veteran re US Destroyer INGRAHAM 15 MODELING AP-165 FROM TRUMPETER O'BRIEN 16 Re Card models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 New ship models have arrived at the Naval Base ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Melvin Burmaster" Subject paper model templates I had written to the fellow at digitalnavy with the suggestion that he entertain doing up paper templates for scratchbuilders of plastic models. Unfortunately I did not hear back from him. The idea was that he could sell the templates for 1/7000th and remove the error-process which results from consulting plans of different scales. The Dreadnought by Digital Navy is a very good template in that respect. Melvin J. Burmaster ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Joseph Low" Subject IJN destroyer camouflage In this particular case, I don't think it is camouflage. It is the water line pattern on the DD's hull after she was sunk. In this picture, she had recently been raised. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From David Wells Subject Re Can any one help and up date? Don that Portland Rustbucket (Donsrcships@wmconnect.com) wrote >> BUT I ran into a problem Dose any one know if Revel will still replace or if you can still get parts for those kits? It is the older one not the one that just came out as the high boy, BUT i am sure some of the parts are the same. Reason is I had an accident in the shop and The steering ROD or shaft for the steering wheel got broken off at the gear box. That sure up set me. I was trying to build it with working steering it was working good until this happen, NOW That is why I am asking about Revel, I know many years ago they use to BUT now I am not sureAT THIS TIME? they were good for helping a person out if you took the time to be honest and tell them what happen, FOR THEY HELP ME WITH KIT MANY YEARS AGO ONE OF THE REVELL SHIPS THAT WAS WORKING ON. SO dose any one know how I can contact themor give me an E mail link or if they are still the same to work with in replacing parts? << Revellogram's policy on broken parts, including a button to submit requests, is available on their website at http//www.revell-monogram.com/broken/ Since the model in question is still in production, they should be able to help you. "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "D.A. den Bakker" Subject card models Ulrich Rudovsky remembers the paper models of the 40ties or even earlier - my own earliest ones were ca 1952. For those of you with the same infromation gap paper modelling has come a very long way. Types of paper are of much higher quality, and a lot thinner than the old fashioned card. The emphasis is now on 'models' - which means careful scale drawing, excellent colouring. Also, very important we now have a large choice of excellent glues - I still shudder at the memory of the glass jar of water based white glue, spread out with a brush which became harder and harder... and having to keep parts in position while drying, using paperclips and clothes pegs... Once again paper models nowadays are most certainly worth a go! Diderick den Bakker, www.zeistbouwplaten.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Subject The color of the sea Greetings I've been busy the last several weeks on making seabases for several of my recent models, one of which is a PT boat. I had wanted to show the PT boat in coastal waters which I would have thought would be more green in color than the open sea. So I tried painting a green sea base. But with the model mounted on the base, it just looked all wrong, quite unrealistic looking. I repainted the base in blues and it looked great. This brought to mind the question of what color is the sea? I read about the gray-green waters of the South Atlantic, the azure Mediterranean, the blue Pacific, the gray Artic. I've rarely lived by the sea, and it always looked blue to me. So, do different seas have different colors? If so, why? I can understand that the sky and weather would have some influence on color. Blue water under blue skies; gray water under gray skies? Could one of you mariners explain it to a landlubber, please? Thanks, John Collins Franklin, TN, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From david@dhathaway.freeserve.co.uk Subject Re Card models From "JAMES HATHAWAY" >> I have been thinking of using this downloadable card model as patterns for one made from sheet styrene. http//www.papershipwright.freeserve.co.uk/ps02.htm She is HMVS Cerberus, a breastwork monitor of about 1868, and the model looks excellent. My father had a card model import business in the 60s and 70s, and the quality on this one matches that of Schreiber or Wilhelmshavner. She is 1/350th scale, and would look great with photo-etch rails and a few other details. << Fellow SMML'ies, As the "owner" of Paper Shipwright can I make two small corrections - The Paper Shipwright webpage has moved and the link given above is out of date (and will be purged shortly) - the correct URL is www.papershipwright.co.uk - The HMVS Cerberus model is in 1250 scale, not 1350 as previously stated. The model is a free download and while the model is a waterline model I have just included a set of hull lines in a .PDF file at the same scale to allow the more intrepid scratch-builders to have a go at a full hull. She is a fascinating ship and it is a crying shame she is rusting into oblivion in Melbourne harbour. Note there is a smaller and simpler model of the German river monitor SMS Rhein of 1871 also available as a free download from my site. Several modellers have said to me they are building plastic models using my card model as a template but I have yet to see any pictures -) David Hathaway ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From 520086475121-0001@t-online.de (F. Pletscher) Subject IJN Destroyer Camouflage In my opinion, those "camouflage" stripes were caused by the tide on the half-sunk wreck. Falk Pletscher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "D.A. den Bakker" Subject extra parts for paper models Detlef Hartwig mentions the Wilhelmshaven sheets with extra parts for paper model ships - they are still available. The wooden or metal parts like gun barrels, railings etc. can be found in all sorts ofsizes and scales, often in a set for a particular model. I am working on a downloadable list of paper models with English instructions, which I hope to install on my website by the end of this week. Diderick den Bakker www.zeistbouwplaten.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Daniel A. Kaplan" Subject Re IJN Destroyer Camouflage None of the IJN DDs ever carried a camouflage pattern. Kikutsuki was sunk in May'42 at Tulagi, was subsequently salvaged by the USN in '43, them moved for further examination in '44. What you are seeing are the effects of various high tide water marks mixed with rust action upon her hull accrued over time. She was sunk at an acute angle with her bow sticking up, then beached in a semi submerged state. Dan Kaplan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" Subject Kikutsuki camouflage Robert, I'm familiar with those photos of the salvaged Kikutsuki. She was sunk in shallow water at Tulagi Harbor by aircraft from the USS Yorktown just prior to Coral Sea; much of the wreck remained above the surface. The 'disruptive geometric pattern' visible in the pics was actually the waterline of the half-sunken ship. When refloated by the USN two years later, paint deterioration and marine growth left that diagonal line visible along much of Kikutsuki's length. Disruptive camouflage was rare for IJN ships, but there were some the DD Mutsuki, CL Tama, and late war carriers come to mind. A build of a camouflaged IJN vessel would be an interesting choice...or a diorama of the salvaged Kikutsuki would be really cool...! Regards, Tim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Rob Robinson Subject Re IJN Destroyer Camouflage Another possible interpretation occurs to me after looking at the pictures, particularly the one taken on the DD's starboard beam. If the vessel was beached at an angle where only part of the bow was sticking out of the water, that & tidal action, acting over a period of months or years, might account for the appearance you have assumed was camouflage.. In particular, note the way the vessel's identification numerals ("23") have been weathered away just where a "camouflage stripe" cuts through them. Also, the forward & aft "camouflage stripes" appear to be parallel, which would be consistent with the above theory & the effects of tidal action over an extended period. The vessel might have been raised or beached higher up for intelligence purposes - I have seen photographs of U.S. Navy salvage efforts during the war - or raised for scrapping postwar. This would explain why the water is no longer parallel with the "camouflage stripes". If the wreck was in a well-traveled area, it might have represented a hazard. My two cents... Rob Robinson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From Reynold.Oh@defence.gov.au Subject Re Trumpeter O'Brien Ref the freeboard on the Trumpter O'Brien kit. I wouldn't pay too much attention to any freeboard measurements. Even as a landlubber, I know that the freeboard of any ship (or boat, even) will vary with the load in the vessel and even the salinity (= saltiness) of the water. More load/fuel carried in the vessel = deeper in the water is the vessel (= it rides lower in the water) and vice-versa. If you think that salinity of the water is not significant, I read (& I'm sorry, but I can't recall the name 'cept that it was a paperback on WWII U-Boats) of a U-Boat that dived too deep because they crew hadn't tested the salinity of the sea. The crew had to 'fight' to arrest the dive, then regain the surface. The salinity of the water affects its density - the more salty the sea, the less water the ship must displace to float (= it rides higher in the water) and vice-versa. I've never measured a model - I just build them. And love the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From Brooks Rowlett Subject Re IJN destroyer camouflage You are probably not the first to be fooled by this - it is not a camouflage pattern at all. The KIKUTSUKI was originally sunk run ashore, like a couple of the German destroyers at Narvik. She sat at a bow high angle, with her aft end underwater. These photos show her after salvage for examination by US forces. The 'disruptive pattern' is actually a combination of leaking fuel oil stains and varying salt water immersion effects over the tidal range during the months she sat in the original sinking position. She was actually painted in the standard Japanese overall grey. As far as is known, the only Japanese combatants that had any form of camo were ships which operated in the Japanese Northern Fleet, bringing supplies to Kiska and Attu. It is known that some of the light cruisers and older destroyers carried white patches. Some merchants vessels and naval auxiliaries did have some form of disruptive camo, as did the immobile TAKAO at Singapore at the end of the war. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From Brooks Rowlett Subject Interesting report from WWII USN Veteran re US Destroyer INGRAHAM A local friend with this web page http//www.cs.iupui.edu/~ateal/Ingraham/index.htm talked to a WWII veteran of USS INGRAHAM (DD 694), due to researching the career of the ship, on which his father served much later (1963). The WWII veteran reported that before INGRAHAM sailed to the Pacific (at some point before departing to the Canal Zone) she was modified in a way contrary to the usual reports of SUMNER modifications He asserts that INGRAHAM received a 40 mm quad Bofors mount in place of #2 (forward superfiring) 5 inch mount. Note that most modifications to SUMNER class destroyers had (and most or all GEARING class were completed with) the #2 TORPEDO TUBE MOUNT, aft, replaced by a staggered pair of 40 mm quad Bofors mounts, and this modification generally occurred in 1945 and postwar. Online photos at www.navsource.org show commissioning photos of INGRAHAM and she is not currently documented at www.history.navy.mil . Nor is there immediate obvious corroborating information at the website for INGRAHAM crewmen and reunions, http//www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4877/ - http//www.geocities.com/ussingraham/DDphotos.html While we all know that veteran's memories are sometimes not exact, he offers the interesting corroborating detail that he was assigned to the director for that mount (and correctly identified the model of the 40 mm director), presumably behind and above it; and that he had a friend assigned to the 40 mm mount. The friend was killed when INGRAHAM was struck by a Kamikaze on 5/4/45 or 5/5/45 (US style date). (DANFS gives May 5th as the date but the war damage report cited on the INGRAHAM web page gives the 4th). The sketch in the battle damage book shows the standard 5 inch installation, but it is possible that if this was a one-off experimental configuration, the BuShips compiler of the damage report book was not aware of it and used the standard SUMNER sketch. Presumably, since INGRAHAM shows the normal installation of 5 inch in postwar pictures and as a FRAM conversion, the ship would have reverted to standard SUMNER configuration during repairs from the serious Kamikaze damage. I have been able to find NO photo documentation of this, and I have certainly never encountered it in any of the standard reference books on US destroyers. On the other hand, I am still trying to solve another photo puzzle of a very late war BUTLER class destroyer escort that appears to have a 40mm quad aft yet also appears to at least still have its torpedo tube crane, but the angle is just wrong to determine if torpedoes themselves are aboard - and the 20mm tubs installed in space made available by removal of the tubes, seen on other BUTLERS with the 40 quad, do not appear in the pictures. Thus, it is possible that several late war AA configuration experiments and variations are not well documented, though the USN appears to have had a major program for shipyards to photographically document conversions and modifications of ships completing repairs and overhauls in the later part of the war. One argument against this reported configuration is that INGRAHAM and its squadron arrived in the Pacific BEFORE the appearance of the Kamikazes, and operated in the Philippines in November 1944, so this is BEFORE the large anti-kamikaze modifications of US destroyers. Any ideas or comments or even better, combat-theater or battle damage pictures of DD 694? Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From chris@libertyship.org Subject MODELING AP-165 FROM TRUMPETER O'BRIEN Draft is a function of how much you have loaded into the ship at any given time. Warships are stuffed full of permanent heavy items like armor and weapons systems, so their waterline typically does not vary a huge amount. Cargo ships on the other hand are basically just big empty boxes that you fill with stuff. When you take an empty Liberty ship and load it fully you are increasing the displacement by about 200 percent, which results in a roughly 18 foot change in draft. The number you found at Navsource is based on the maximum legal draft- during wartime ships would sometimes exceed this amount. The Trumpeter waterline is right about in the middle of the range, just deep enough to keep the propeller submerged. Ships sailing in ballast would tend to have at least 20 feet of draft at the stern for this reason, although the draft at the bow was often less (6 to 10 feet was typical). Regards, Chris Friedenbach Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From DD Subject Re Card models Hi, To give you an idea what can be done using card models see here http//www.kartonwork.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=72787&sid=5200974891f740d88ded877c7129d3a4#72787 There are much more such ships (and not only). Damian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "The Captain" Subject New ship models have arrived at the Naval Base Totalnavy.com we have your model ship kit right here. The Swift Boat kits have arrived. Over 15" long. Just click the picture for more info. Under $20.00 Look what else the sea has brought in. A 30" model of the Seawolf Class. Under $35.00 Here it is the USS Lexington of WWII fame the newest model click the picture for more info. These new model kits are what you are looking for. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume