Subject: SMML VOL 2749 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:00:33 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 1200 scale Ships 2 Re Post War USN Submarine Paint Colors 3 Re Realistic planking and USS New Jersey deck shade 4 1/200 scale 5 Re HMS Ark Royal 6 Re Cerberus 7 Re Cerberus - card model 8 1900 ish photo etch? 9 HMS "Thunderchild" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Graeme Martin Subject 1200 scale Ships Hi Luca, I suspect Trumpeter produces all these 1350 scale models to compliment the already large 1350 scale market that is out there. Also they can produce a huge variety of models as their overheads are so low (hence why so many western companies are now manufacturing out of China with low cost wages etc). and they are targeting the biggest market in the USA first, hence why WW2 Aircraft Carries and now Battleships like the North Carolina/Washington class which is on their hit list. This is complimented with interesting subjects from the Soviet Navy of the 80's. The size of 1350 scale ships is more accommodating in the average house than 1200 scale monsters. It is only a few people that can accommodate a one dozen x 1200 scale ship collection in their home, whereas the average punter can have at least four or five of his favourite 1350 scale ships scattered around the house. All these things would be thoroughly researched and taken into consideration by the marketing team before commencement of any project by Trumpeter or their competitors. I once heard that a kit like the 1350 scale Enterprise needed to sell umpteen thousand to break even on the mold costs alone. So you see it all comes down to economics. As costs have risen in Japan less and less large scale plastic kits are coming onto the market from there. It would seem only China can do this or has the hunger to do this. When costs finally go up there we will have to look to other developing countries to transfer the technology and manufacture new models. While the resin market is small. I congratulate the individuals in the USA and other countries who have made the effort to get models like the North Dakota and Alaska class onto the market in 1350 scale. Expensive as they are, they are out there................... cheers, Graeme Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "John Snyder" Subject Re Post War USN Submarine Paint Colors Ah, time for me to weigh in here >> [SNIP] SHIPS-2, distributed by the Bureau of Construction and Repair (BuC&R), USN. These are explained in very good detail at www.steelnavy.com/usnchips.htm [SNIP] << No explanation needed read SHIPS-2 and more at http//www.shipcamouflage.com >> [SNIP] The paints used in Measure 33/3SS-B and 32/9SS are 5-N Navy Blue FS35044 5-O Ocean Gray FS35164 5-H Haze Gray FS35237 5-L Light Gray FS36320 5-P Pale Gray FS35526 << Nope. The FS system is a postwar invention, and there are NO ACCURATE FS EQUIVALENTS for wartime USN colors! The wartime USN colors were based on the 1929 Munsell Book of Color, and the callouts are as follows 5-N Navy Blue, Munsell 5PB 3/2 5-O Ocean Gray, Munsell 5PB 4.5/3 5-H Haze Gray, Munsell 5PB 5.7/1.6 5-L Light Gray, Munsell 5PB 7/2 5-P Pale Gray, Munsell 5PB 8/1 >> [SNIP] The above colors are obtained by mixing 5-M (Tinting Material) and 5-U Base (White) in varying ratios. << Nope, they were obtained by mixing 5-TM and 5-U. >> [SNIP] There are two other colors used 20-B Deck Blue FS35042 BK Dull Black FS37040 << And the correct, non-FS, callouts for these are 20-B Deck Blue (1941), Munsell 5PB 3/1.5 20-B Deck Blue (1942, revised), Munsell 5PB 3/4 BK Black, Munsell N2.5/0 And, by 1945 the submarine measures had moved into the neutral grays #27 Haze Gray, Munsell N 6/0 #16 Medium Gray, Munsell N 4.9/0 #46 Outside Gray, Munsell N 8/0 #4 Deck Gray 20, Munsell N 2/0 >> [SNIP] As submarines evolved from the fleetboat to the GUPPY conversions to the tear-drop hull to the nuclear submarine the > operational paint schemes remained basically two; all black, and black and medium gray. Some photos may show variations in the black areas but this could be due to wetting or different age of the paint. When a submarine is fresh out of the yards it will often have a red-lead lower hull and hull numbers and depth-of-keel numbers. During sea trials after construction and after upkeep periods the Emergency Messenger buoys will be painted international orange for greater visibility. When a sub goes on operational patrols the hull numbers, red-lead, and emergency messenger buoys are painted over. << Not necessarily so. In fact, the photos of the Los Angeles-class USS San Francisco in drydock after her recent underwater collision clearly shows that she carries a red lower hull (photo forwarded for posting on SMML). Anyone interested in the development of naval camouflage should have a look at http//www.shipcamouflage.com, where you'll find SHIPS-2 and other official USN documents, as well as Alan Raven's excellent series on the subject. Best regards, John Snyder White Ensign Models http//WhiteEnsignModels.com and Snyder & Short Enterprises http//www.shipcamouflage.com Photo uploaded to the Misc Reference page under References on the SMML site. Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From David Wells Subject Re Realistic planking and USS New Jersey deck shade Luca Bevilacqua wrote >> I'd like to build her right out of the renewal. I've seen B/W photos that seem to indicate a very light deck, bach then. Anyone knows wheter the ship was replanked when modernized, or the light color is because of old (paled) plancks? << I'm assuming that you mean her 1981-82 modernization The wooden decks were not replaced at that time, however much of the aft portion of the deck was covered for the extended helo pad. I don't know if Tamiya got this right on their kit, but the Revell (ex-Otaki) kit did. The light color is typically a result of the deck being "holystoned". If the deck has just been "holystoned", it will be a VERY pale tan. Apparently, the deck will soon return to a somewhat darker tan. Sadly, the deck is not in such good shape today. Apparently, it deteriorated badly during her last period in reserve in the 1990s. If you see the deck today, it's kind of greyish and rotten in places. They've sanded it down a bit, so it doesn't look quite so bad, but it's still not what it should be. I recall seeing the Wisconsin not long after her decommissioning, and the decks were just gorgeous. For lots of pictures, you can consult the BNJHMS web site http//www.bb62museum.org/photos.html David R. Wells Co-Webmaster, Battleship New Jersey Historical Museum Society "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "William Michaels" Subject 1/200 scale I've got an Imai 1/200 scale USCGC Eagle under construction. It is the largest scale EAGLE in plastic- bigger than Revell's 1/253 scale oldie. I have to say, the kit is not as good as the Revell kit in several areas. There is no detail at all on the outside of the hull- no plating or rivets at all. (Eagle has some pretty prominent plating on her 1936-vintage steel hull.) Also, the decks have engraved parallel lines for th eplanking detail. Problem is, there are no cross grooves, to mark the ends of the planks- the effect is the decks look like they were planked with very long pieces! Not sure what I'm going to do about that.... Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "John Barnum" Subject Re HMS Ark Royal Jecobin have a set of drawing of the ship as she was in 1985.Since then she has had a major refit so there are a lot of changes to the ship. If you want to contact him , his email is jecobin@beeb.net . I would also like to suggest the book Ark Royal A Flagship of the 21st Century. It has some very good photos and a CD about the ships as she is now. John Barnum ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Allen Stevens" Subject Re Cerberus I take my hat off to Combrig for producing pre Dreadnought ships, I am buying them as fast as they come out, I have just completed HMS Royal Sovereign using White Ensign photo etch sets and with the Victorian livery she looks good! I fully back the plea for some of the old pre WWI cruisers perhaps also some of the late Victorian 2nd class cruisers only about 2000 tons but real beauties. It is nice to see that a manufacturer has taken the risk in producing these early kits I have spent my whole life thus far praying for pre dreadnoughts hopefully the guys in Russia will keep going I take my hat off to them. Incidentally I bought the Combrig Grille (Hitlers yacht) and whilst the owner may have been repellent the ship itself is a masterpiece makes up into a beautiful kit. All hail Combrig! Regards to all Allen Dorset. England ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From david@dhathaway.freeserve.co.uk Subject Re Cerberus - card model People The 1250 Cerberus model I have available for free download from the Paper Shipwright website (at www.papershipwright.co.uk) does indeed show the ship as she appeared either as launched in 1871- or just after arriving in Australia. She was given a full three-masted siling rig for the voyage out but I have not found enough accurate information to reproduce that (yet) - look at the image library at www.cerberus.com.au - there is a picture called "the arrival" that shows her with three masts, etc. Note also the built up bulwarks. However - I have also got available a printed-only updated version of the model which allows the modeller to assemble her either as launched or as she appeared around 1895-8. At that time she had a single "military" mast, the flying deck had been cut back and she had gained Nordenfeldt machine guns, 3 and 14-pounder QF guns, searchlights and anti-torpedo net booms. Go to the catalogue page, choose Cerberus and then look at the lower half of the "more pictures" page to see pictures of a completed model. Personally I think she looks much better in this guise. I would be willing to print any of my card models at 1350 scale if people want - the difference should be small enough to not be too badly affected by the relative change in card thickness. This is one advantage of having a "virtual mould" that can be realised simply by printing on card -) Using her as a basis to scratch-build Devastation or Thunderer would be "challenging" to say the least. Hull beam-length ratio was different, the breastwork came right to the sides on the Devastation, the superstructure is completely different, etc. I have Devastation on my "to do" list but she's some way down - if I got enough interest I could bump her up the list. Personally I fancy doing HMS Glatton first. David Hathaway www.papershipwright.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Mason, Jeff" Subject 1900 ish photo etch? Further to Chris Tilley’s comments on Pre Dreadnought etch sets. May be a period generic set in 1/700 circa 1900 ish What would be useful would be Torpedo net rails & trays (if “tray” is the correct name for the platform the off duty net sits on). Various sizes of deck / platform supports. Ships of that period had very little between platforms but they did not sit on fresh air. Broad side gun embrasure’s Davits with straps that go under the cutters / whalers as seen on photos of HMS Dreadnought (Conway) etc. That would make attaching sea boats easier than hanging them on etched “Falls” How about some nice flying off platforms & a Sopwith Camel to go with them for later that century? I am sure there could be more. Any experts listening. Jeff Mason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From Shane Subject HMS "Thunderchild" Hi all, Seeing as we're on the topic of Cerebus, etc Does anyone have any idea of which current 1/700 kit could be kitbashed into HMS Thunderchild from HG Wells "War of the Worlds" as per Jeff Wayne's great album (you know the one with that ancient big black round disc in it ;-) ) cover? Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume