Subject: SMML VOL 2750 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:57:25 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Pre-Dreadnaught Cruisers 2 Re a few words on 1350 3 Re HMS "Thunder Child" 4 Revell USS Massachusetts lower hull 5 Re submarine hull colors (Con't.) 6 Naval Technology - Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) High-Speed Surface Ship 7 Re Post War USN Submarine Paint Colors 8 Naval Technology - Industry Projects 9 HMS Thunderchild 10 paint 11 Re HMS "Thunder Child" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Leslie D. Foran" Subject Pre-Dreadnaught Cruisers In reference to the recent comments on predreadnaught models, may I offer the following There are a few predreadnaughts on the market in plastic that can be built into pretty decent models with a little (or a lot) of effort, but they are inexpensive kits to begin with. Currently, I am building the Glencoe USS Oregon in 1/225 scale. I believe this kit is out of production, but there are still some out there. A good companion model is the Lindberg 1/240 scale USS Olympia. This protected cruiser is available in their "Lindberg Classic" series. It is not as well detailed as the USS Oregon, but once the cast-on details are removed and a little modification to the decks and superstructure done, it will accept the GMM PE set for the Glencoe Oregon & Revell Olympia. I have never seen the latter. With details added and rigging, it builds into a good-looking model. An advantage to builders of this model is the prototype is still in existence and on display, so current color images are available on-line. To round out my collection of predreadnaughts, I found two 1/250 scale small cruisers offered by Zhengdefu. These are injection molded kits with power option. The names are Zhiyuan and Jingyuan, but the kit contents are the same. Detail on these is a bit sparse and heavy, but again with work they can be the basis of some nice models. Price on these is under $10.00 US apiece! These are models of British export cruisers built by Amstrong at Ellswick in 1885-86. These ships were sold to the Chinese Navy and were lost in action against the Japanese in 1895 in a war over Korea. A real plus with these is the fact that they were built to a standard design and exported to several smaller navies, although they were not robust enough for the RN itself. In doing Spanish-American War research for my two larger ships, I found two of these ships in the Spanish Navy (Isle de Luzon and Isle de Cuba). These ships appear to differ only in detail from The Chinese ships, biggest change looks like the foremast is placed ahead of the bridge instead of behind it. Both these ships were captured in the Battle of Manila Bay (1898), repaired, and put in service in the US Navy under their Spanish names! So one or two more may find their way into my collection. Zhendefu also offers two predreadnaught battleships which I did not buy because of the scale difference with the other ships. They are 1/300 scale, and feature an asymmetrical turret arrangement similar to that on the USS Maine, although they do not resemble this class of battleship in overall appearance. Les Foran At the Far End of the High Plains ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Ouellette, Lawrence M" Subject Re a few words on 1350 From Bevilacqua Luca >> ByTheWay 2 possible that Tamiya simply gave up on 1350 subjects, is it really impossible to compete with Trumpeter? << Luca, A few years ago someone wrote on newsrec.models.scale that they attended a major toy and hobby show in Japan, and actually talked to Mr. Tamiya (yes, he is a real person.) Tamiya's toy and hobby market is 90% (or more) to Japan, about 5-7% to USA, and the balance for the rest of the world. They produce and sell what their Japanese customers will buy, and if it sells elsewhere, then it is a little extra money in their pockets. The percentages are not exact, but just to give you the idea that Trumpeter has chosen to market to the USA (and the rest of the world) and their very low labor and tooling costs ensures that they can make some money. I am going buy most, if not all of what Trumpeter offers in 1/350 as $ allows. Wish list Follow-up the North Carolina with a DesMoines/Salem class heavy cruiser! (Yes, I already have the Classic Warships Salem, just wishing for an injected plastic version.) Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http//www.uss-salem.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Peter Chant" Subject Re HMS "Thunderchild" >> Seeing as we're on the topic of Cerebus, etc Does anyone have any idea of which current 1/700 kit could be kitbashed into HMS Thunderchild from HG Wells "War of the Worlds" as per Jeff Wayne's great album (you know the one with that ancient big black round disc in it ;-) ) cover? << Shane, In the book HMS Thunder Child (yes two words) is described as a torpedo ram, hence the recent posts equating her with HMS Polyphemus. However the album sleeve for Jeff Wayne's musical version shows a Victorian pre-dreadnought. It could be anything from the Canopus to Duncan, so I would go for the new Combrig HMS Queen, having just received mine via our friends in South Farm. Repaint in the Black, White, Buff scheme and add a card-built Martian Fighting Machine from http//home.hetnet.nl/mr_11/173/erwin47/models/tripod/. to finish it off! Peter Plymouth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" Subject Revell USS Massachusetts lower hull From Maarten Schönfeld >> A few weeks I put in a request for the lower hull of 1720 HMS Hood, I got several responses, and the project is progressing well by now. Thanks all! I already started another project, this time converting the Hasegawa South Dakota into USS Indiana. For this I would like to have the lower hull of Revell's USS Massachusetts in 1720 scale. Is there someone who kept these inferior parts of the kit after cutting up the ship to make it into a waterline model? In that case I would gladly have them to make my own model into a complete ship! (Of course we will never agree about what a ship model should look like...!) << Maarten, I once considered just such a conversion with the Hasegawa South Dakota built full-hull using a Revell Massachusetts lower hull. Unfortunately, I found the Revell lower hull to be a poor fit with the Hasegawa upper. Designed as it was to be a robust "snap apart" structure with the kids market in mind, the 1960's era Revell part had some shape problems. It was too short overall and too wide at the bow; getting it to fit would have been a nightmare, and the resulting Frankenstein probably wouldn't have been very accurate anyway. In the end, I found it better to just build up the Revell Massachusetts hull and superstructure and detail it with Hasegawa parts. The Revell kit is very basic, but with the Hasegawa weapons and a little photoetch the old girl can look pretty good. That said, I do have an extra Revell Massachusetts lower hull if you want it. I'd have to ship it to you from the US West Coast, though, so it might be cheaper to just buy the whole kit locally...but if you want it, it's yours. Good luck with your Indiana! regards, Tim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re submarine hull colors (Con't.) Rick Nelson stated >> When a submarine is fresh out of the yards it will often have a red-lead lower hull and hull numbers and depth-of-keel numbers. During sea trials after construction and after upkeep periods the Emergency Messenger buoys will be painted international orange for greater visibility. When a sub goes on operational patrols the hull numbers, red-lead, and emergency messenger buoys are painted over". << I'm sorry, but that is just not true. As pointed out by John Snyder, the hulls are not all-black operationally. There are numerous photos of operational Los Angeles class, Sturgeons, Permits, Polaris and Ohio SSBNs with "red lead" (Actually red antifoul) halfway down the hull. The hull numbers & DSRV markings are painted over, (draft numbers & lines remain). The Emergency Buoys are secured as described. When submarines are "factory fresh", they are often painted red up to the free board waterline. They are then repainted black to halfway down the hull, and usually (but not always) red from half way down to the "keel". This is to improve visibility for Navy divers who inspect hull fittings. Here are a few excellent photos of boats with this scheme http//www.cpf.navy.mil/images/0102greeneville26-med.jpg http//www.cpf.navy.mil/images/0102greeneville25-med.jpg http//boomer.user-services.com/drydock/990316-03-675.html http//boomer.user-services.com/drydock/990313-22-675.html And here's that fresh green primer coat I mentioned a few posts back http//boomer.user-services.com/drydock/990316-01-675.html Also the statement "The second scheme, black and medium gray, needs some explaining. The submarine is painted all black except for the vertical surface on the sail and, if the sub is a missile boat the vertical surface on the superstructure housing the missile tubes". That describes a paint job used only in the 1960's. It was used on some missile subs, and some SSNs (Scorpion was in that scheme when she was lost). In the early 1970's, it was all black above the waterline, no grey. Time frame matters in modeling. On another note, I am having problems (probably due to AOL) in receiving my SMML mailings. That caused, for one thing, a delay in this response. My thanks to Kevin of Fleetline, who has kindly been passing the volumes along to me via email. If I don't answer someone's posting, it may be because I haven't seen it! Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject Naval Technology - Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) High-Speed Surface Ship http//www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/ Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "Rick Nelson" Subject Re Post War USN Submarine Paint Colors Hi again, From "John Snyder" >> Ah, time for me to weigh in here Nope. The FS system is a postwar invention, and there are NO ACCURATE FS EQUIVALENTS for wartime USN colors! The wartime USN colors were based on the 1929 Munsell Book of Color, and the callouts are as follows << I included the FS numbers because Ron ( the author of the origional article) was asking about what colors to use and since paints based on "Munsell Book of Color" are not available (as far as I know) and FS paints are this is the closest curent recommendation. >>> [SNIP] The above colors are obtained by mixing 5-M (Tinting Material) and 5-U Base (White) in varying ratios. << Nope, they were obtained by mixing 5-TM and 5-U. << Thanks for fixing the type. I'm sure Jon Warneke and Jeff Herne appreciate it. >> Not necessarily so. In fact, the photos of the Los Angeles-class USS San Francisco in drydock after her recent underwater collision clearly shows that she carries a red lower hull (photo forwarded for posting on SMML). << I suggest that you take a closer look at the San Francisco in drydock. The black that was applied over the red has worn off quite a bit but not entirely. Like I said first comes red, then comes black over it. Attached is a picture of a boomer in drydock after a couple of 65 day patrols. Quite a bit of warn paint below the waterline. The choice is to represent a submarine at commissioning on an operational boat, modeler's choice. Rick Nelson "Damn the Pressure, Six-Zero feet!" "Boomers Hide With Pride" Photo uploaded to the SMML under Misc Refs Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject Naval Technology - Industry Projects http//www.naval-technology.com/projects/ Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From Subject HMS Thunderchild Hi Shane While researching the different “War of the World” sites, I came across an interesting diorama. A modeler constructed a diorama depicting the “Thunderchild” standing into danger facing 3 Martian war machines. The war machines were of the record album type (they are available as a resin model and as a paper model download). The “Thunderchild” was fashioned from the Revell USS Olympia, according to the author/builder. As I recall he painted the hull black with a white superstructure and placed the smoke stacks side by side in keeping with English stack arrangement of the time. Unfortunately the web site and link literally disappeared overnight before I had a chance to save it to file (only viewed it once). The workmanship of the war machines and ship looked top notch and the “sea state” looked very good too. With the upcoming WOW movie from England and the forthcoming WOW Spielberg epic, I got the “bug” to construct a model of a subject that always fascinated me, a war machine, the type that was found in the old Classics Illustrated comic book of the 1950’s. I’ve built a “Tripod” in 1/35 scale and I’m in the process of building a diorama with a British field piece facing down the “Tripod” in the English country side. But after viewing the ship diorama I feel that another construction project is in the wings. My version of the “Thunderchild” will use the old Pyro Olympia but my interpretation of the ship would resemble an American Navy monitor of the 1890’s. I plan to cut the hull down to a low freeboard. The superstructure will be compact with no small caliber guns protruding from the hull. The main gun battery will be twin turreted with a single mast. Mr. Wells wasn’t clear as to the class of the Thunderchild or the exact appearance of the war machines so any modeler can build any type of diorama and still escape the nit picking of the “rivet counters”. If you’re interested I’ll send along a photo of the “Tripod” when the diorama is finished. And if you are a fan of WOW I’d enjoy seeing a photo of your “HMS Thunderchild”. Wishing Spielberg set his movie in Victorian…. Regards Mike Maynard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "Janine Crick" Subject paint Hi, I have read over the last couple of days the talk about colours and have a question of mine. I have painted a US WWII ship with White Ensign Models 5-n navy blue & 20-b deck blue and I can't see any shade difference. Is it my eyes or are these the same colour. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Shane Subject Re HMS "Thunder Child" Hi Mike & Peter, Thanks for the info - much appreciated. I haven't read WOW for a while now (must re-add to the classic Sci-fi book collection) as opposed to listening to Richard Burton narrate it every few months. I must really catch up on my SFX magazines as I wasn't aware of the two movies coming out, mind you the Thunderbirds movie also caught me by surprise last year. The diorama that Mike mentions seems like the article in FSM from way back which also used the Glencoe Oregon. I'll contact the nice folks at South Farm to see about the Combrig HMS Queen and more than likely get me a Cerebus as well. But as for seeing a model of it soon - well the chances of me building it or indeed anything soon are a million to one (sorry had to get in before the usual suspects weighed in about my building time). Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume