Subject: SMML VOL 2833 Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:17:06 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Hornet in $$ trouble 2 Re Aircraft manouvering ships 3 Re c1-c2 vessels 4 Re maneuvering carriers by airplane power 5 Re Aircraft Manoeuvering Ships 6 Re Aircraft Maneuvering Ships 7 N3N Aircraft 8 C1 vs C2 hulls ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From SSachsen@actransit.org Subject Re Hornet in $$ trouble be advised that what you are reading now is nothing new that hasn't been the case for the last 6 years. just the names of the players have changed. someday, hopefully, Hornet will receive the leadership she so richly deserves people who fully understand what a MUSEUM ship is supposed to be, what it takes to make it so, and have the ability to turn the vision into reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Maarten Schönfeld Subject Re Aircraft manouvering ships I can add one occasion when on-board aircraft were used to aid in manoeuvring the Royal Netherlands Navy 'Hr.Ms. Karel Doorman,' the former HMS Venerable from the Colossus class. On 12 July 1960 this aircraft carrier entered the port of Fremantle in Australia. Because of political reasons -- the Netherlands were considered patronizing Dutch New Guinea (now Papua - Irian Jaya) by not handing over the sovereignty to the Indonesians -- the Fremantle Dock Workers Union refused to give tug assistance to the Karel Doorman. By using a number of Grumman Avengers (I believe six) lashed to the flight deck the mooring manoeuvre could be completed without any assistance, much to the surprise of the gathered crowd, and obviously to the chagrin of the dock workers and tug crews. Finally on 1st of October 1962 the sovereignty of New Guinea was transfered to the UN and hence to Indonesia, under heavy pressure by the UN Security Council, headed by the United States. Since then conditions for the local Papua population have been poor, suffering from many cases of disciminative conduct by both Indonesian government authorities and citizens. Maarten Schönfeld ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From ×לישע Subject Re c1-c2 vessels The category C1 or C2 was for a size range, with additional information added for specific designs. It is true that the "standard" C2 was 459 feet long, but the C! was only 338 feet long. The war-built "Liberty" ships carried the maritime designation EC2 (presumably for Emergency C2) and were 441 feet long. Aryeh Wetherhorn = Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From ×לישע Subject Re maneuvering carriers by airplane power In the USN the use of aircraft to assist in maeuvering was referred to as "Pinwheel". It was especially useful when tugs were not available, or wind conditions were adverse when maneuvering in restricted waters. USS Princetonscraped her side on the pier in Alameda California because she had only 2 tugs and did not use Pinwheel. USS Coral Sea did use pinwheel getting underway from the Bosporus. 8 aircraft were positioned at each of the 4 corners of the flight deck, and assisted the carrier in getting underway safely from a congested anchorage. Aryeh Wetherhorn = Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Paul OReilly Subject Re Aircraft Manoeuvering Ships All I'm aware that aircraft were used to assist in docking aircraft carriers from time to time in heavy cross wind situations. I know of no instances where the aircraft were used for controlling a ship on the high seas. I know the RCN used aircraft for docking purposes (HMCS Magnificent) and that the USN used their radial engined aircraft for such purpose during the Korean War. I'm not aware of jet aircraft being used thusly. I suspect that sometimes the use of aircraft in this manner was a matter of pride for some ship's captains as the use of tugs was considered unmanly and the use of said tugs (especially civilian tugs) came with a price tag. My thoughts. Paul O'Reilly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Paul Borchers Subject Re Aircraft Maneuvering Ships I knew a former U. S. Marine pilot who mentioned maneuvering an LHA (or possibly an LHD) exactly in the manner you described using Harriers lashed down on the forward portion of the flight deck. A pilot sat in each cockpit of the "opposing" aircraft and took directions from the bridge on who should throttle up and the duration of the run-up. I imagine that would be more responsive than the rudder for maneuvering the ship at very slow speeds (although a tugboat would probably be more efficient overall). Paul Borchers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From ELLshipmodeler@aol.com Subject N3N Aircraft This is most likely not the best forum, but it is a starting place. It is navy related. I would like to build a model of the N3N and would like to use a kit. I do not want to take the time to start from scratch. I would like the pontoon version. The reason is purely sentimental, since this is the aircraft we used at the Naval Academy for summer flying training (quite a few years ago). There is a completed model now available by special order with a 15" wing span. As a model builder I cannot bring myself to purchasing one for the asking price of $375.00. Also it is much more rewarding to say I built it myself, even if from a kit. The model and a photo of a flight over the Chesapeake Bay can be seen at http//homepage.mac.com/usna54/PhotoAlbum1.html So, any leads on a kit would be greatly appreciated. Gene Larson Alexandria, VA Shop notes Web Site http//members.cox.net/elarson5/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From chris@libertyship.org Subject C1 vs C2 hulls Ken wrote >> I have been reading a book, Sailing Into The Abyss" by William R. Benedetto. He mentions that the ship, which is the subject of his book, Badger State was a 441 foot hull and he calls it a C2 hull. I served on an AKA that was a C2 hull, but its length was 459 foot. I have built a model of my ship whose scale is based on the C2. I also bought a partially built model of the same scale, but it is based on a 441 merchant ship. I think the author of the book was mistaken in that the Badger State must have been a C1hull. I know that reviewing the web sites on AKAs an all of them state C2 hulls that are 459 feet long. Can anyone confirm my beliefs? << The author has the length of the Badger State wrong- the length I have for her design is 459' 6.5". The length cited was probably somehow derived from the Liberty ship hull (designated EC2 for emergency cargo), which is 441' 6" long. There were no other C2 designs with hulls of this length. The terms C1 and C2 refer to ranges of length, rather than a specific number. These ranges differed between types, so a C2 (cargo ship) was shorter than a T2 (tanker). Wartime C1 designs ranged from about 320 to 420 feet in length. C2s were typically between 420 and 460 feet long. At the extremes of the ranges there was not much size difference between the two (the overall length of the longest C2 design was actually slightly greater than the shortest C3 design). Specific designs were usually designated by adding an additional term to denote the power plant, and/or a third term to specify the design. The Badger State was a C2-S-AJ1 (basically meaning a cargo ship of C2 length, steam powered, design AJ1). These full designators were a bit of a mouthful, so in general use all of the additional terms were dropped and they were simply referred to as a C2. The general term "C2" could mean any one of 21 ship designs built during WWII, while "C1" could refer to any one of ten designs. Regards, Chris Friedenbach Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O'Brien ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume