Subject: SMML VOL 2891 Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:07:16 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 INRO Tour of England 2 Early French/Italian ironclads 3 Re Victorian Warships 4 Shinano colors 5 Re Victorian Warships 6 Hobby Shops in St. Louis 7 Book - BATTLECRUISERS - ShipShape Series by J. Roberts (#4562372450) 8 Doncaster - 24 hours from Atlanta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Shinano as paper model ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From CokerRE@aol.com Subject INRO Tour of England For those of you who missed the INRO tour of England this was a tour of a lifetime for ship enthusiasts. Hopefully we will see more SMMLies on the next one. See http//www.ijn.dreamhost.com/Templates/INRO/INRO.htm PC Coker ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From John Fraser Subject Early French/Italian ironclads Another good book is the monography of "Le Bouvet" which includes fantastic plans of this ship and a good book (in French) about it's development. It took me ages to get a copy but worth it (for me at least). Le cuirassé d'escadre Le Bouvet Luc Féron http//navi.modelisme.com/dp/diaporama.php?root=bouvet&src=104 If you like huge rams and massive tumblehomes then another book could be "Les Cuirasses Redoutable, Devastation, Courbet" by marc saibene which is similar to the Anatomy of the ship series about. These ships may be too early for you though (1874 I think), they have masts and sails. It was another book that was difficult to find but, for me, worth it. Plans for these ships appeared in "Souvenirs de Marine" which was republished recently. Hope this helps. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Gary Mansfield" Subject Re Victorian Warships For Gary Kingzett, Thank you for the reply I will search for the books. Gary Mansfield ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" Subject Shinano colors From SceneN3D@aol.com >> I too have a desire to someday attempt constructing this super-carrier...The "pinkish" anti-skid composite added to the deck is new ground for this reader, however. ... No doubt this would make an interesting modeling subject. << Bob, A couple of years ago I asked for help on the Shinano on the j-aircraft Japanese Navy & Ships message board http//www.j-aircraft.org/bbs/jship_config.pl?#10256 Apparently no one really knows for sure about Shinano's appearance, but I received some great responses, reproduced below. I hope you find them useful. regards, Tim Reynaga HI Tim, very interesting question. Actually the color of the flight deck is well attested by several eye witnesses, either former crewmen or civilian workers. It was....(drum roll...it'll be quite a shocker)...PINK!! (Look at the box art of the first Tamiya kit, they got it right...) Yes, that's right, when she was sunk the flight deck hadn't been painted yet and we don't know how it would be painted. Red-brown crushed bricks were applied to the flight deck to create a non-skid surface and they were bonded with a white adhesive, resulting in a pinkish deck. Obviously they would have painted that before she entered service but like I said there is no way to know what color. As for you question, yes, I believe her flight deck would be camouflaged- just like that of almost any other carrier at that time - but probably not like Zuikaku or Zuiho's. In 1945 IJN's surviving carriers were mostly concerned with the frequent bomber raids on Japan's major harbors and the camouflage on their flight decks was meant to blend with the surrounding environment (hills, trees, water etc.) rather than to simulate the appearance of a surface combatant (like Zuikaku's flight deck), which would have also been a great target. There were several articles citing this fact on the Japanese model press. The guy who originally made the claim (can't remember his name now) is (was? might be dead now...) a multi-millionaire who made a fortune in the construction business and was a civilian worker on the Shinano in 1944. Initially in Japan some people bought his story and some didn't (the argument is as old as the first Tamiya kit) but eventually a few other eye-witnesses came out confirming his story. I can't give you precise book/magazine references because it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack, but I'm sure that the Gakken book on the Shinano (which unfortunately I don't have) has this story. The reason why no Japanese has ever modeled the pink deck is pretty obvious, they're too proud of their IJN and would never show anything "embarrassing" like that (and that explains why the guy who first told the story was the object of real anger...) In fact I've never seen a model of the Shinano without aircraft on deck, which is another historical falsehood. For the record, all models of the Shinano I've seen in Japan have a gray deck. If I were you, I would just write the story on an accompanying piece of paper with a color copy of the box art of the first Tamiya kit. I think that'll be more than sufficient for the IPMS guys, who can barely distinguish the Shinano from the Hiyo and usually mispronounce both of them... It is interesting to note that while the guy who painted the art of the first Tamiya kit obviously believed the story, Tamiya had a very prudent approach, recommending a gray deck in the instructions. So, they had it both ways... Regards, Paolo _______________________________________________________________________________________________ Shinano had a concrete deck. Reports give her a pinkish/dark brown color, it also had saw dust mixed into it. The man who played the original Godzilla was apparently aboard the Shinano on one of her trial runs and said the flight deck area was awful because the winds across the decks were puling the sawdust out of the deck and making it blow along the deck blinding anyone who had there eyes open. Shinano had her hull painted in the two tones but from my research she never had her deck camouflage. Allan Perry has done a lot of research into this, check out his site at http//www.geocities.com/ijncv/index.html Matt ________________________________________________________________________________________________ From Allanparry [mailtodparry02@cableinet.co.uk] Subject Shinano flight deck camouflage Hi Tim, I have not found any info confirming flight-deck camo on Shinano. However, it is likely that she would have had it applied at some point. Maybe she only had theanti-submarine hull camo applied at the time of her sinking, as she had to sail through dangerous waters en route for her final fitting out? Had she not been sunk, this final fitting-out may well have include deck camo. The drawings found in Gakken and other publications of Shinano with deck camo are purely speculative! Re. other IJN CV camo designs, see http//www.geocities.com/ijncv/ Best Allan Parry _________________________________________________________________________________________________ Posted By Carl Ybarra In Response To Shinano camouflage (Tim Reynaga) Both the Model Art 561 and Gakken 22 Japanese model mags show the full deck camo. The Gakken has two schemes that are similar and in color, but the Model Art gives the colors in the written, with the black and white diagram. I suspect you are familiar with at least one of these. Since these are in Japanese, it is difficult to say where these come from. Both mags have very similar schemes, so they are based on a common source, which gives this an 'air' of authenticity. But it is difficult to say if this is the way the ship looked. I am in the process of building the Shinano and have addressed this same issue. I plan to resolve this problem by making at least two decks in both camo and non-camo. But you also have the problem of how the decked looked without camo. John at W.E.M. suggested that the deck (by rumor) was cement and wood chips, which may give it a pinkish or reddish color (or would it?). And would the concrete be light or dark gray in color? You are talking about a 'phantom' ship, so much will remain unknown. Posted By Yutaka Iwasaki In Response To Shinano deck camouflage in mags (Carl Ybarra) It's me who draw the two deck camo schemes in color on Gakken's vol. 22. (Originally it was not for publishing but for discussion with TAMIYA's new 1/700 SHINANO.) The Japanese caption explains it is come from imagining. I just applied ZUIHO's scheme onto SHINANO's deck. Japanese carrier's deck camos were painted for mooring beside small island in the Inland Sea (SETONAI-KAI). It's imitating the terrace rice field or ridge path on the islands. (See ISE or HYUGA bombing photos. They were also moored beside the Inland Sea islands.) I heard that while SHINANO's sea trial, a carrier version SHIDEN-KAI (George) fighter landed and launched from SHINANO. When this George touched on the SHINANO's deck, its arresting hook scratched on the concrete deck and the watchers in the sponson suffered scattering pieces. SHINANO seemed not had como on the deck in her life. It would be painted after she had arrived Inland Sea (KURE). Posted By Carl Ybarra In Response To Re Shinano deck camouflage in mags (Yutaka Iwasaki) We need at least someone to come forward and verify that this is Zuiho's scheme. The rest of course, is hearsay. Forgive me for being sceptical, but I do believe Richard Wolff's message. Also, where did Model Art mag get their camo scheme from, and the colors they chose? But this does raise a series of questions about the deck, which will probably never be answered definitively, but need to be asked 1. How would the deck be repaired if damaged? I find it hard to believe they would not have figured that into the making of the deck (choice of materials, etc.). 2. Was the deck installed in pieces? I suspect the deck may have been made there on the ship, or in the immediate area close to the ship. The result would be seams where the sections come together, and may or may not be visible on models (depending on the scale). Also, the different sections may have look differently. 3. Was the deck "holed" as is depicted in some models, allowing the deck to "breath" (expand, etc.)? As you can see, this is not a simple matter, expecially for the modeler. This still doesn't address the question of the color(s) of the deck, whether camo or not. In most cases where there is insufficient information, we look for precedence. Are there any other late war aircraft carriers faced with the same problems as the Shinano? How were these deck issues resolved on those carriers? Posted By Richard Wolff In Response To Shinano deck camouflage in mags (Carl Ybarra) According to Moore's "Shinano The Jinx Carrier" (USNIP, Feb. 1953), the flight deck was covered by "a thin, shock-absorbent latex-sawdust-cement composition." In a footnote, he explains that "the latex-sawdust-cement composition was not, as some have said additional armor for the flight deck. There was actually a shortage of flight deck lumber at this time." I read this description to mean that the "cement" in Shinano's flight deck covering was a glue holding the mixture together and NOT "concrete." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Subject Re Victorian Warships The query is for 'books dealing with the service life, building etc these ships' (sic). I'm not exactly sure what this means, but from the reply, perhaps material on the design and development of these ships seems to be of interest. If so , how about the following? - Warrior to Dreadnought - Warship Development 1860 - 1905, by D.K. Brown, pub. Chatham 1997, ISBN 1 84067 5292 - The First Destroyers, by David Lyon, pub. Chatham 1996, ISBN 1 84067 3648 - Birth of the Battleship - British Capital Ship Design 1870-1881 ( these three are focussed largely on British practice, and are well-supplied with technical detail. The third is dripping with biblio. references, I think many probably being difficult for the ordinary mortal to retrieve. IMHO, excellent. The first two I purchase relatively cheaply through www.naval-military-press.com six months or so ago; the third was through a good deal through the Borders Chain in the USA) - Conway's History of the Ship Series "Steam, Steel and Shellfire - The Steam Warship 1815-1905", ed R. Gardiner, pub. 1992, ISBN 1 55750 774 0 (this covers development in all of the prominent nations) - Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905" ed. R. Gardiner, pub. 1979 ( sorry, no ISBN to hand) Brian Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Mark Doremus" Subject Hobby Shops in St. Louis Dennis, It’s like the other side of town from the A/P but check out CRM Hobbies. I moved from St. Louis about a year ago, so I don’t have a good set of directions. Check them out through Modeling Madness, Chris is a sponsor. The shop is dedicated to plastic kits, you almost can’t move around them. He also has a good supply of books, resin, PE and tools. It’s worth the trip. Mark Twain Hobbies in St. Charles is nearer to the A/P, but it’s a full line shop; RC, trains and all. They have a good selection of plastic, including about 10-15 feet of ship kits. There’s a Hobby Town or two also. Mark Doremus ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From paulship57@hotmail.com" Subject Book - BATTLECRUISERS - ShipShape Series by J. Roberts (#4562372450) I saw this on eBay .This seems to be a book that many on the list would be interested in. Book - BATTLECRUISERS - ShipShape Series by J. Roberts Item number 4562372450 Paul Giltz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Subject Doncaster - 24 hours from Atlanta Well for those of us who cannot make it to Atlanta there is the Great Northern Model show this weekend in exotic Doncaster! I am looking forward to it, it will be my first ever visit to a model show, but I have had to promise the wife to leave the credit card home ( The whole family will be going, the two boys kicking and screaming no doubt (two boys and neither of them ever wanted a train set, dammit!). Well it is my turn, been to enough computer fairs and game expos for them! If anyone else is going you will recognise me, I will be hiding my face while my wife points at everyone and giggles "Look, Mike, another grown man with nothing better to do!" I am very misunderstood at home. Wishing all but four of our citizens a peaceful weekend, wherever you are! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "D.A. den Bakker" Subject Shinano as paper model Hot news there is now available a paper model, 1400, of the Shinano. Published (literally this week!) by JSC in Poland, with (of course) very detailed instructions in English. This and similar nodels are highly detailed. 'Traditional' modellers will be surprised. A picture will be on my site within a few days. Price 40 EUR + P&P. Send a mail if you are interested. www.zeistbouwplaten.nl / zeistbouwplaten@planet.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume