Subject: SMML VOL 2960 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 01:17:01 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 DEs & Frigates 2 Pedestal air groups 3 Re Spitfires, Hellcats etc 4 Oops, Copenhagen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Jon Holford" Subject DEs & Frigates Gentlemen, I am delighted with the effect of the "depth charge" I dropped on this topic! Bill Shuey and others are absolutely right about the genesis of the Flower class corvettes. I did not include them in my comments for two reasons. Firstly they were not intended to be ocean escorts. Secondly, they were a pre-war conception and so did not take account of the lessons of the war. Of course, as the war continued, lessons learned were incorporated as alterations and additions and they absorbed these drastic As & As remarkably well considering all things, especially their size. Their crews did wonders. DK Brown ought to be right about them being too rolly-poly for their job, but their crews showed what could be done. They were really a remarkable success in their way. Their sensitivity to bad weather, in a sense, mattered only to their crews, as when the weathjer was too severe for them to operate, neither couls submarines of the time. They could survive, though, and when the weather improved, they were still there and still pinging. Let me be clear; my first posting on this thread was not intended to restart the war of 1812! As Allen Stevens very rightly said, the RN and USN had different design and procurement philosophies. The ships which resulted were, in general, suitable horses for the courses they were intended to run on. The Flowers were exceptional. On the racehorse analogy, they were designed as children's donkeys but ran in the Grand National. They didn't actually win, but they got round the course as well as some of the horses. BZ to them! DEs are also a special case. They began as a British staff requirement formuilated when only earliest lessons of the war had been assimilated and when the USA was still at peace. By the time the first ones were completed, the USA was in the war, more lessons had been learned by both navies and they were built for both navies. The short hull Evarts class were barely up to the task, and in the light of experience, only long hulls were repeated. These, as we know, came in several varieties; diesel electric, geared diesel, turbo electric and geared turbine. They also came with and without torpedo tubes, with 3" or 5" guns and with large and small depthcharge loads. The Weapons and Electronics outfits evolved as the war went on and afterwards. None of them were perfect, but they accepted evolution well. Allen makes a fair point that they may have been wetter than their British opposite numbers. The Captain class, I believe, generally carried a heavier load, mainly in depth charges, and were fitted with spray shields on their guns, esp. B gun (gun3-2) which was "duty gun" at cruising stations (Condition 3). The DEs that I myself remember were at the end of their active lives in the '60s, but were still giving good service in a number of roles. I include the DERs in this. By my time, the Castles, Black Swans and Rivers had gone except in non-frigate roles. There were still one or two Lochs and Bays serving in "Send a Gunboat" type roles for the most part. They were not at their best outside the North Atlantic for which they were designed. My first hand knowledge is therefore limited, but I was trained by the men who fought WW2 and my opinions reflect the training they gave me. British ship design and construction was ezxperienced and well established. This was good in many respects, but there was less scope for expansion than in the States and the British (including their craft unions) were more conservative. The Americans were less experienced and expanded by using non-ship-builders to build ships. This SHOULD have caused shambles, but in fact resulted in what, if I wished to be insulting, I could call Herman Wouk's "master plan designed by geniuses for execution by idiots". It had its failings, but on the whole led to an amazing degree of successful innovation. The actual techniques of building - upside down, all welded, modular- was a tale in itself. The designs were adaptable and operable by crews most of whom had never seen the sea before. The Lochs were, as I said, nearly ideal one-course-horses for their time and place. They met the urgent needs of the RN almost to perfection and as such were a great achievement. The later DEs, starting from the same basic requirement, adapted to the Atlantic and Pacific wars in both navies and to post war needs as well. That was THEIR achievement. To sum up, this is not to knock either navy. Both served gallantly and successfully. The RN acquired of ASW expertise which led the world into the 1980s at least and the USN was able to take over the pre-war "Pax Brittanica" role of the RN on a huge scale. We may differ on the politics of it, but as a professional seamen I have to admire both equally, right from 1812 on. If this produces more comment on either side which tells me things I didn't know before about frigates and DEs, I'll be wholly delighted. Particular thanks the Allen's grandfather-in-law, and apologies if my initial ranging shot offended him! Jon Holford Cork, in neutral Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From אלישע Subject Pedestal air groups The Pedestal Convoy was accompanied by 4 Aircraft Carriers. However, one of them, FURIOUS, was not part of the escort. She was there just to ferry a group of 38 spitfires to strengthen the Malta air defences. She launched her aircraft for a one way journey before the convoy really encountered enemy opposition. She then returned to Gibraltar with her escorting destroyers in order embark a second group of 32 spitfires for a similar journey. 37 of the first group reached Malta, as did 29 from the second. One of those in the first group aborted and sucessfully landed on INDOMITABLE. The total FAA fighter component for the operation was originally to be 72 aircraft. A further 28 torpedo bombers were carried to provide anti-submarine patrols (or strike targets of opportunity). The TSR aircraft were almost all Albacore Is. They were assigned to 817 and 832 squadrons in VICTORIOUS and 827 and 831 squadrons in INDOMITABLE. I believe that at least 4 swordfish from 824 squadron were also embarked in EAGLE. It was apparent that the Admiralty was only too aware of the limitations of the Fulmar fighters that had been embarked in the carriers prior to the operation. A major effort was made to reequip all three carriers with newer aircraft. VICTORIOUS sailed from Scapa on 31 july still carrying 884 squadron with Fulmar IIs, and only 6 Sea Hurricanes in 885 squadron. Most of the Fulmars, but not all, were supposed to be replaced by Sea Hurricanes in Gibraltar before departing for "Pedestal". She was accompanied from Scapa to Gibraltar by ARGUS carrying at least 12 sea hurricanes of 801 squadron that were moved to EAGLE. 880 squadron and 800 squadron on INDOMITABLE already had 31 sea hurricanes, and she added "A" Flight from 806 squadron which was equipped with Martlet IIs. (And she had about 20 albacores!) INDOMITABLE had sailed from Freetown to join the force at Gibraltar. EAGLE was already there. EAGLE was torpedoed and sunk at the beginning of the convoy battle. There are different numbers given for her air group, but the one I believe is that she was carrying 16 sea hurricanes of 801 squadron. Four of these were airborne when she was torpedoed and they were recovered by the other two carriers, VICTORIOUS and INDOMITABLE. The two carriers were now reported to have 56 of their own fighters aboard, plus the 4 refugees from EAGLE. And that was in addition to the torpedo squadrons! the carriers must have been VERY crowded. During the critical air battle on 12 Aug the CAP included 3 martlets, 16 sea hurricanes, and 10 fulmars. I do not have statistics regarding how many axis aircraft they destroyed or damaged. INDOMITABLE was struck by small bombs from a pair of Italian Regianne fighters that masqueraded as British aircraft to the point of joining a landing pattern with their wheels lowered. VICTORIOUS was hit by larger bombs that disabled her elevator. After VICTORIOUS was hurt INDOMITABLE was still operating 47 fighters of various types. During the time when there was carrier fighter escort not a single merchant ship from the convoy was hit by axis air attack. That shows what a tremendous contribution the carriers, with all kinds of fighters, made to the defence of the convoy. Aryeh Wetherhorn Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Tim Perry" Subject Re Spitfires, Hellcats etc Guys, treat yourselves to a copy of a decent flight sim, such as Pacific Fighters (http//www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php ) and try all these tactics out for yourselves! You will soon see how 'easy' it is for some Uberfighter to nail the opposition. Or maybe not.... Tim Perry wunwinglow www.tjpgraphics.com for digital aviation modelling www.kipperboxes.co.uk for 1200 Warship models www.cardmodels.net for the best paper and card website on the net www.bammo.org.uk for IAM motorcycle training in the Bristol area ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Subject Oops, Copenhagen >> The British did take our navy in 1807 << And bombed a city that was a model of civilisation in grim times, not one of our prouder victories. What can I say? I will buy you a Kronenberg next time I am in your wonderful country. Trouble is of course all that Viking blood you lot injected into the British gene pool! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume