Subject: SMML VOL 2963 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 01:55:59 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Escorts 2 Corvettes - Ocean or Coastal? 3 Flowers in the Castle ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Allen Stevens" Subject Re Escorts George makes a good point why didn't the Flowers ever have bilge keels fitted or did they and no one noticed ? I don't remember seeing anything on this subject in DK Browns books although I will go home tonight and have a good read (report back tomorrow). I recently re-read Nicholas Montserratts 3 corvettes and it is clear that whilst the Flowers were quite frankly horrible rollers the crews had an enduring affection for them (the U boat kill rate was pretty good too). Montserratt states that he missed Corvettes after being given command of a frigate they must have had a certain something to be missed ! A question does fall out of the 3 Corvettes book in the early part of the war he served in corvettes on the East coast they are described as being twin screwed ? anyone shed any light on what they were as I cant seem to find any info on twin screw corvettes in my own library. On the subject of more modern escorts I have always been confused as to why the RN changed hull designs from the excellent Leander, Rothesay etc design to the modern shape. When I joined the Navy the Leanders were still around in large numbers and, whilst I didn't serve on one myself, were described as excellent sea boats was it just designers feeling a need for change or more practical reasons ? Ps addendum to above I also re-watched the Cruel sea anyone interested in these ships and that era should definitely watch this film. Regards to all Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Jon Holford" Subject Corvettes - Ocean or Coastal? Corvettes were specified and designed as coastal escorts on the basis ofthe Smith's Dock whalecatcher because the submarine behaved very much like a big tin whale. Catching it required the manoeuvrability and seakeeping qualities of the whalecatcher. Ships' motion is many ways a relative thing. Warships are generally designed to be steady gun-platforms, so naval constructors and navies themselves do not like roly-poly ships for good tacytical reasons. In my lifetime at sea in naval, merchant and fishing ships, I have heard complaints about rolling applied to most ships at one time or another. Corvettes were small, buoyant and naval architects' terms, very stable. That is, if you rolled them out of the "straight and level" they would try, hard and quickly, to come back. Being small, they were easily pushed about but being stable, they never stopped fighting back. Like most lifeboats (help me out here, Allen!) they were safe, good seakeepers, but very bouncy. As they proved, AS SHIPS they could more than cope with Winter North Atlantic (WNA) conditions. As weapons platform for the more sophisticated weapons of the mid to late war, their motion did not help and on long trips, it was very fatiguing for the crews. This latter factor would have mattered less in a coastal escort. Moreover, the seas around the British coast are not gentle. On the west coast, you get real WNA stuff and the North Sea produces wicked short, steep seas in a blow. Corvettes, were roughy-toughies that could cope with that but their crews had to be roughy-toughies too, to cope with them. They suffered a further problem; one of radius of action. They spent a lot of time steaming at near maximum speed, since their margin over convoy speed was not not great. This meant that with their greedy triple expansion engines, they were a bit short legged for ocean escorts. Their successors either had larger fuel caoacities or more economical propulsion systems. Whale catchers of the day worked from factory ships or remote shore stations like South Georgia, but the intervals between fuelling stops were not that long. They chased a more manoeuvrable and faster prey, too, than a Type VII U-boat. As the coastal escorts, the Flowers would have been outstanding, as well as simple to operate and easy to produce in numbers. As ocean escorts, they were not IDEAL, but their virtues were still virtues. Their vices, or more kindly, "limitations", were largely the result of the expansion of their role to way beyond what was first intended. Despite those limitations, their crews, crowded in uncomfortable conditions for longer periods than intended, kept them going as effective escorts right through the war. I have served on many effective useful ships that rolled every bit as much as corvettes, but most of them were merchant or fishing craft, OR they were warships employed outside their intended main role; for example, a Ton class minesweeper on passage in WNA conditions. The ships could cope OK and I suffered nothing worse than fatigue and foul language, but I would have had problems operating sophisticated weapons systems. Violent motion is inevitable in small ships because the sea can throw them about bodily as it cannot do to bigger ships. Those who had not served in anything smaller though frigates/DEs lively! I don't think their successors as slow/medium speed patrol craft, like the Isles class or the Irish patrol vessels are altogether restful ships, either, but they are effective in their intended role. Jon Holford ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Subject Flowers in the Castle Greeting back Jon, I did get the gist but thought I would stick in a spanner anyway ;) For my vote the Castle is the archetypal escort, based on the Flower Class and custom built for the job, most RN escorts had an identity crises, they did not know if they were fleet destroyers or escorts, I presume that was why the long defunct "Frigate" was reintroduced. But the Castle would not have been much use in the Pacific of course! As for sea keeping on a Flower, well non sank did they? Unless as a result of enemy action or collision. I keep reading what wonderful sea keepers the Leander Class were, well they sure rolled! I don't know about on wet grass but they rolled even when alongside the dockyard wall! I read Nelson was ridiculed for being sea sick at anchor, well I can beat that, I was incapacitated with mal de mer for a week while tied up at South Slip Jetty in GUZ on HMS Naiad when I first joined her. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume