Subject: SMML VOL 2967 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:59:36 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 OT - Things to do in Italy 2 Re Regulas I/II missile ships and their effectiveness 3 S- Boat information 4 Re Diorama 5 RN warship forefoot paravane attachments 6 Re 1/700 L'Arsenal Colossus Class carriers 7 Flower bilge keels 8 Re Any sources (info) on S-Boats? 9 Re Regulus I/II submarines 10 Re Regulus I/II submarines 11 Derry 12 Re Type 12 Hulls 13 Re Regulus thread ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Stuart Batchelor" Subject OT - Things to do in Italy I know it's slightly off topic, but has worked well in the past. I'm looking at a chance to go to Italy in May'06. I'm looking for suggestions on things to do/places to see. They don't have to be ship related, or even military. I've never been to Italy (or even near the Med) and am lokking for ideas. Any help appreciated. TIA, Stuart Batchelor Edmond, Okla ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re Regulas I/II missile ships and their effectiveness To understand the effectiveness of the Regulas I/II missile ships' ability "To fire a 'Blue Bird,' as the missiles were called, one only needs to remember that with their launching, the then Soviet Navy responded by building their 19,000 tonne Moskva class flat-deck Soviet warships to sweep the seas of NATO ballistic missile submarines, and specifically the Grayback and Growler, and their ability to carry Regulus cruise missiles. About this matter of the Moskvas and their fate ". . . the huge Head Net C radar staring out into the distance and the 8 tiny domes of its extensive Side Globe ESM suite still sniffing the air for electronic emissions. "It's huge 265-foot flight deck which once reverberated to the roar of 18 Kamov Ka-25 Hormone and Ka-27 Helix anti-submarine helicopters, is now as quiet as the grave. Long chains lead from the helicopter cruiser to the scrap yard. In the next few months, tides permitting, workmen will use motorised winches to pull the ship up to the yard and then set to work on it with gas cutters, like tiny ants cutting up a huge whale carcass. The first flat-deck Soviet warship when she was commissioned into the Red Banner Fleet in 1967, the 19,000 tonne Moskva was designed to sweep the seas of NATO ballistic missile submarines. It's arsenal of 18 SUWN-1 anti-submarine ballistic missiles, each tipped with a 15-KT nuclear depth bomb, the power of the Hiroshima device. Fired into the sea from its twin launchers, the depth charges could instantly vaporise enemy submarines, before they had a chance to fire their deadly missiles into the Soviet heartland. "They had a design history that was steeped in the uneasiness brought about by the introduction of ballistic missile submarines. Design work on the Moskva and its sister ship the Leningrad started in the late 1950s shortly after the US Navy began modifying the submarines Grayback and Growler to carry Regulus cruise missiles. Regulus I's approximate 500-mile range would have required her to operate near the Soviet coast. Moskva with her 18 helicopters would have been adequate for the anti-Regulus role. Besides, the ships would in a sense, act as minesweepers, but the mines here were enemy submarines, and these helicopter carriers were to clear the path for a Soviet fleet. The Soviets planned to build at least one more Moskva Class but this was cancelled because of problems building the first two ships. Moskva and Leningrad entered service in 1967 and late 1968. "Both served primarily in the Black Sea and the Mediterranean with occasional voyages to the Eastern Atlantic. They were poor sea-boats, partly because of the huge Moose-Jaw sonar which caused them to trim about three feet down by the bow. But aspects of their design, namely that of a helicopter-carrier-heavy cruiser hybrid were incorporated into the four ships of the Kiev class that were to join the Soviet Navy between 1975 and 1987. All that is history now. Built for an Armageddon that never came, the warship roughly the size of the decommissioned Vikrant, has served its time in the Russian fleet and after a long period of inactivity was sold to a Calcutta-based Indian scrap company. . . ". . . The NRI buyer who purchased the decommissioned aircraft carrier, the USS Bennington in 1995 went bankrupt with losses of over Rs.4 crore. Cutting up the carrier took almost two years and unlike the merchant ships, the metal recovered from it was found to be too thick to be re-rolled. The Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier Varyag which was put on the block a few years ago, was given the go-by apparently for the same reasons . . . "The sale of such ships has almost totally been taken over by the mafia, he says, and even frontline ships have their parts and machinery regularly pilfered by organised gangs of thieves. He's recently bought and cut up the Russian Kresta Class cruiser, Vasily Chapaev, which joined the Soviet fleet in 1978." http//www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Articles/Article07.html "Prepare to launch missile, . . ." And to bring matters back to a modelling point, this same naval scrap yard in India is about to scrap "the Veinticinco De Mayo, the Colossus Class remnant of the Argentine Navy's seemingly unending flirtation with aircraft carriers, is to join the chopping block here." This ties in with L'Arsenal's announcement of their new 1/700 scale Colossus Class carrier. Now all one needs is a flightdeck full of A-4Bs. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Sell4853@aol.com Subject S- Boat information Following the request for information on S-Boats the following website is well worth looking at (The British Military Power Boats Trust) which can be found at; http//www.bmpt.org.uk/index.htm you can even find good information including photos of the preservation work being done on S130 the last surviving German S-boat. They also have a nice historic motor launch of 1940 for sale! Norman SELLS Tenterden Kent UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Ned Barnett Subject Re Diorama >> I'm come from poland and i have one question. How do/did you make this diorama(sea)?? (U.S.S Enterprise) << Jimmy That's a huge question. First, you start with a kit of the Enterprise - CV 6 or CV 65 - and decide if you're going to build it "waterline" (easier for diorama) or full-hull (easier if your kit is full-hull). If you're going to cut a full-hull down to waterline, you'll want to massively reinforce the hull before you cut off the bottom - otherwise it will distort. Do this before adding any detail, and be prepared to throw out a disaster or two before you get it right (you might want to experiment with some low-cost hulls - maybe on a ship that the "cat dragged in"... Next, the base. I like to build on a hard-wood base that's been thoroughly sealed (varnish) before you work, so the "water" material won't attack it. Next, you mark out the area where the hull will sit - everything around it is "water" but you want to anchor the model directly to the base. Now for the water material. Some use an epoxy resin (watch out for the fumes) - some use materials made for water (lots of those out for model railroaders). Years ago, I had remarkable success with plain household spackle - it "took" wave shapes well, and - when dry - it sucked up so much paint that I could get a full range of colors from froth-white to deepest blue, all by using a single color (navy blue) - the more coats, the deeper the color. It made for very fine gradations. This technique is not much used now, but for a small, large-scale ship (I used this for a North Atlantic fishing trawler that I converted to a Russian spy ship/trawler) it works very well. Hint Put some small nails, staples or other protrusions in the "water area" of the base so the spackle will have something to grip. Otherwise, when it dries, it might pull away. Also, the spackle may crack when drying - that's OK, just patch it before you paint it. When done, coat with Future, artist's gloss medium, or something else to make the painted spackle look like water. If you use the epoxy or an acrylic medium, you might be able to tint the layers to get a water look - also, you can paint the base a dark water color to add appearance of depth. There are several books and many articles out on doing water bases, and they'll elaborate on this. ALSO - if you're doing a diorama, consider adding crew figures - they're available, even in 1/700 scale (though very tiny) - and they add "reality" to the scene. Good luck. Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From LymanJohnF@aol.com Subject RN warship forefoot paravane attachments In response to the query about KGV and BELFAST triangular plates at the juncture of cutwater and keel (the forefoot), I believe those are the attachment points for the paravane streaming chains that would extend outward on either bow of the ship underway with minecutting paravanes streamed, and which would extend upward to the forecastle (and be tied off) when the paravanes were not in use. There are many photos extant of RN and other navies' ships with the chains extending upward from below the waterline at the bow to the forecastle deck - the concept of "every ship a minesweeper" was widespread in the pre-WW2 period, before bottom and other influence-triggered mines became popular. John F. Lyman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re 1/700 L'Arsenal Colossus Class carriers As I recently was allowed to post on this site from Jacques Druel at L'Arsenal info@larsenal.com , about there released 1/700 L'Arsenal Colossus Class carriers. These cover the - 1/700 HMS Colossus in her original fit. - 1/700 Arromanches ( modified Colossus ) as she appeared in 1954 before her major refit. - Later angle deck versions will be available. Starting with the Colossus in her original fit, this kit should allow one to model the British Colossus, Glory and Venerable, who all were able to deploy to the Far East before the end of WW-II as part of the 11th Carrier Squadron, but too late to actually see action. And, most of these Colossus Class carriers were finished in the then standard Admiralty Standard camouflage scheme. The individual carriers in her original fit were as follows with where they went Colossus; RN service until she was loaned in 1946 and then sold to France in 1951 to become their Arromanches. Glory; RN service in WW-II, Korea and Malaya in the late 1950s. Venerable; RN service until she was sold to the Netherlands as their Karel Doorman. It was then sold to Argentina as their 25 de Mayo, but more about her later. Vengeance; RN service until the early 1950s when she was transferred to Australia. When she was returned in 1955, she was placed in reserve until she was sold to Brazil as the Minas Gerais. Perseus; RN service until she was scrapped in the late 1950s. Pioneer; RN service until she was scrapped in 1954. Warrior; in Canadian service when completed until she returned to RN service in late 1948 where she served in the Korean conflict, and was then sold to Argentina as their Independencia in 1958. Theseus; in RN service in Korea and Suez. Ocean; in RN service in the Med, Palestine crisis, Korea and Suez. Triumph; in RN service in Malaya, Korea and in the Indonesian confrontation. With the - 1/700 Arromanches ( modified Colossus ) as she appeared in 1954 before her major refit, one could easily model the following Colossus / Arromanches. Warrior / Independencia (Argentina). Venerable / Karel Doorman / 25 de Mayo (Argentina). Vengeance / Australia / Minas Gerais (Brazil). And with L'Arsenal's - Later angle deck versions will be available, one can build the following Arromanches, Independencia (Argentina) and the Karel Doorman / 25 de Mayo (Argentina), Minas Gerais (Brazil). And with these same models one can easily build with some modifications to their bridge and island structures, the follow-on RN Majestic Class carriers that were all sold to other navies as Terrible / Sydney (Australia), Magnificent (Canada), Powerful / Bonaventure (Canada), Majestic / Leviathan (scrapped), and the Hercules / Vikrant (India). One must congratulate Jacques Druel at L'Arsenal for his decision to release these models. One can only suport such efforts by buying multiples of this company's products. Also, I forgot to mention that Jacques has mentioned that he is also going to be releasing French Marine Nationale accessories in 1/700 scale that will soon start a range of PE parts and to then produce some resin parts such as gun directors, turrets, launches, etc. . . , hopefully to go along with Niko Model's French destroyer models, at www.nikomodel.pl . Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Darren Scannell Subject Flower bilge keels Going through some SMML's for the past week, I read a question regarding whether or not the Flowers had bilge keels. The Flower class corvettes did have bilge keels and rolled anyway. I guess the ship was too small for them to be very effective. I can supplie pic ref's if anyone wants. Darren ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re Any sources (info) on S-Boats? A wonderful source of pre-WWII US submarine information is http//www.rddesigns.com/subs/legends.html Specifically, the section on S-boats is at http//www.rddesigns.com/subs/s-boats.html Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re Regulus I/II submarines Not sure what additional information you are looking to obtain. I just did a three part series on postwar US submarine development in The SubCommittee Report (The Official "party organ" of The SubCommittee), and had a section on the Regulus missiles in Part 3. In fact, one of my photos of an unusual bows on photo was on the cover of the June magazine (http//subcommittee.com/SubComm/screport.cfm). Two factoids I can add among many are that the Regulus II missile was designed by Chance-Voight using offices in Boston's Old North Train Station. Both Regulus I and Regulus II test missiles were equipped with landing gear, so that they could be reused. Operational versions of Regulus I lacked the gear and had a modified nose to carry the nuclear wepaon. Another item is the the USS Halibut, an SSGN, was intended as an interim design for a nuclear powered cruise missile submarine. Halibut was basically a Skate class SSN adapted to the SSGN role by adding the very large hanger forward of the sail. She retained the smaller S3W reactor (7500 SHP) of the Skate design, and hence was slow. Also, there was considerable concern around a flooding casualty in the single large hanger, which would have doomed the submarine. The more advanced design (SSGN-594, USS Permit lead ship) would have had four smaller hangers each carrying a single Regulus II. When the Regulus program was terminated, the 594 was reordered as a Thresher class SSN, as were Pollack, Plunger, Barb, and Dace. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "Tom Detweiler" Subject Re Regulus I/II submarines Hi Harold -- Thanks to you and all the Ship Modeler's Mailing List contributors for your help and guidance, many times over! This is just a modeling aside on your Regulus missile thread, which made me smile and very fondly reminisce When I was around 12 or 13, I was given for birthday one year a huge model of the SSGN Halibut, complete with firing Regulus missile! I don't remember the maker-- I bet Tom Dougherty the "sub Tom" will know who made it-- but it came wrapped in a huge box, doubling the excitement. This was a plastic assembly kit, not an accurate scale model, just close enough to resemble Halibut complete with the front "nose" hangar bulge. It made a complicated operational plastic model, and built into a sub over two feet long. Its drive system used D cells and an electric motor in a watertight compartment, and there was a kind of plastic clockwork mechanism driven off the motor-- a gear driven analog computer that controlled the drive motor, the bow planes, and rudder to perform a preprogrammed sequence of controlled events! It was designed to work in a swimming pool or pond, and would start out in a circle on the surface, then dive down, level and travel in a circle underwater, then rise again to the surface and, running in a circle while it's sail-mounted "radar" turned, the hangar door would open, and a Regulus missile would pop out on a trolley where a spring mechanism would fire it off into the air, flying many feet!! This was a complicated thing to build, and occupied my Dad and I for many evenings and a couple of dry runs to test its mechanism, before its 'sea trials' in the creek on our property. The current was a little too strong and it promptly nosed down into the mud where it stuck, forcing me to dive in to cold autumn Michigan water to retrieve it, after fishing tackle and other measures failed. I did get it back, though! On later voyages (in our neighbor's swimming pool) this toy sub did exactly as it was supposed to do, although it was set to do a much larger circle than most pools of the time. I don't think it was reprogrammable, though. It was a marvel to watch as it did its submarine and missile firing routine, we kids were thrilled and had a great time with it, and the adults were both amused and captivated for a while. It was one of the few toys I kept stored once I left home, and at one point I tried to rebuild it to look more like the Seaview. Sadly, it went away during one of my parents' garage sales, while I was away at sea in the real Navy. But it was one heck of a toy, and fired a scale Regulus! Yours in nostalgia -- Tom Detweiler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Subject Derry >> After much searching I have taken ownership of a 1/96th scale type 12 hull from cammett ltd and have started building HMS Londonderry circa 1984, at that time derry was fitted with experimental "pump jet" propellers, if anyone has plans/drawings or photo's of these I'd be most grateful. << I believe she also had an extra mast, I have a few photos from the period I will look out. I remember the experimental pump jet, I think they decided it was too noisy? She was also trialing a computer controlled comms system at the same time, it was supposed to set up circuits by remote instead of a bunch of ROs and Gollies running around with patch leads. The Chief Elec (Radio) was pretty chocker at the time because the two highly paid civvy consultants doing the trial were his ex PO and Killick! I did hear (but only rumour, I was not on any at that time) that the towed array fitted to some ships in the last years caused splits to open up (can I say that in this politically correct age????), they were retired surprisingly shortly after the refits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From "Andy Airlie" Subject Re Type 12 Hulls Off topic I know, But the 60, 70, 80 and 90 Shilling names come from the Duty the Customs and Excise charged on a Barrel of beer (The higher the duty the higher the Alcohol content of the beer.... 60' - typically 3% ABV, 90' - 5.5% ABV + ) If a whole barrel of beer only cost these amounts, we'd never have managed to get to work ) I'm afraid I'm now in the mood for a couple of pints.....down tools and off to the Pub! Cheers Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From Steve Singlar Subject Re Regulus thread In one of the messages there was a comment regarding these rather large missles being deployed (or at least tested) on destroyers. Any idea which destroyers? Thanks, Steve Pelham, NH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume