Subject: SMML VOL 2970 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:43:50 +1000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Flower Class Corvettes 2 Re Flower Class Corvettes (US) 3 Re Flower Class Corvettes 4 Re Dog Boat query 5 Battle Class Destroyers 6 Modeling Question - Colors for USN S-Boat Submarines - PI, 12/7/41 7 Dog Boat Planking 8 A feast of answer- I Bit! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 Modeller required ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Daniel Bauer" Subject Re Flower Class Corvettes Hello! There is an excellent web site on Flowers by Bob Pearson, www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/index. He has some ggod info on how to correct the problems on the Revell/Matchbox model. also has info on US Flowers as well. Good Luck on your project. Best regards, Dan B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From John SLATER Subject Re Flower Class Corvettes (US) Larry the reason why you won't find much on US Flower Class Corvettes, is the search term on the internet and other sources will be in adequate. Why? Flower Class Corvettes serving with the US during World War Two were not called "Flower Class Corvettes" but were redesignated "Temptress Class Gun Boats" and often referred to simply as "Gun Boats". I used the Revell Kit as a base, for the USS Surprise PG-63. Main differences are that the US extended the forecastle deck level aft of the funnel. The Revell kits shows an extended forecastle deck level compared with the orignal Flowers to a position foward of the funnel. Also, the pop-pom stand goes, and aft and foward main guns were a 3" 50 cal. Check out the link http//www.navsource.org/archives/12/09063.htm Other differences are in the bridge / mast / radar equipment. As always with Flowers few had the rounded stern like the Revell kit, most had a squared off stern. So depending on which US boat you do and which ex RN Flower it is will determine if its a rounded or squared off stern. If you would like to buy a fibreglass 1/72 hull with squared off stern I suggest you contact APS models in Australia. I can supply the e-mail address. Hope this helps John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From RDemeyere@aol.com Subject Re Flower Class Corvettes >> I had the pleasure of knowing a Flower Class veteran, who sadly passed away last year. He was a crewman on PG-70 USS Courage (ex-HMS Heartsease) and he mentioned that the ship did roll quite a lot. At least it stayed afloat, as others have mentioned. The Courage never saw much combat as the destroyers always called her off to go after the U-boats themselves. This crewman was still on board when she switched to patrolling off Greenland, which he said was miserable (cold) and boring (no action at all.) My intention is to build my copy of the Revell corvette kit as the USS Courage. John Lambert was able to provide some information (Thanks John!) but I haven't found much on the US Flowers at all. << Lawrence, The Flower Class corvettes supplied in reverse Lend Lease by the United Kingdom or built in Canadian yards were stopgap vessels until US destroyer and destroyer escort production could get ramped up. Once these bigger and more capable vessels came on line, the US Flowers joined the 173' PCs in providing escort to convoys along the U.S east coast. Boring, but in anti-submarine warfare boring is a good thing. It doesn't make the topside midwatch off of Greenland any less cold but it means the enemy is somewhere else and not endangering you or the ships you are escorting. Those who stood and waited contributed to the ultimate victory as well. Here is a link to the Steel Navy webpage on USCG-operated Flower-class corvettes http//www.steelnavy.com/USCGcorvettes.htm You will note that the armament fit is different between the British Flowers and the US Flowers. The US Flowers ship substitute a US pattern 4"/50 without gun shield forward and mount a US pattern 3"/50 in a gun tub at the extreme aft end of the superstructure. The the 2 pounder AA gun and bandstand are deleted. The AA gun complement consists of 2 single 20mm Oerlikon guns (on Mk 4 mounts?) on the bridge wings and 2 more singles mounted port and starboard in free standing tubs just aft of the boat deck. Depending on the particular ship, you may also see a square cut to the forecastle break vice the curve seen in the British and Canadian ships build or backfitted with this ship alteration. Here is a link to the H&R Products website. Their 1/72 line has all the fittings needed to convert the Revell model to US pattern weapons. (These items are cast metal and require some clean-up and additional detailing to be useful but they are not expensive and provide a starting point.) http//www.hrprod.com/ For specific ship information on the USS Courage, you might want to contact the Coast Guard Museum. If they can't help you, they can probably point you toward someone who can http//www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/museum/MuseumIndex.html Hope this is helpful. Russ P.S. Here's an interesting research question. Some of the pictures on the Steel Navy webpage show what appear to be squared off sterns. Since some of the US Flowers were built in Canadian yards, were they built with the minesweeping sterns (which the Canadians developed) but had installation of the actual minesweeping winches, paravanes, etc. omitted? (Probably not the case with the USS Courage since it was a UK-built vessel.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From RDemeyere@aol.com Subject Re Dog Boat query >> Does anyone know about the planking on the D Class Fairmile MGB/MTB? Previous Fairmiles had double diagonal planking but in the only photos I have of construction (from Allied Coastal Forces of WW2) the planking on the D seems to be horizontal, except the deck, which retains the diagonal in the form of a Herring Bone pattern. << Mike, Unless you are building an absolutely authentic model (down to the last detail) of the MTB/MGB or a cutaway model that would show this otherwise invisible feature, finding the answers to your questions may not be useful from a model building perspective. However, there a builder's photographs and construction notes in the Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Fairmile D that could answer some of your questions. The hulls were caulked and sealed prior to painting. Similarily, the decks were also caulked, sealed, and given a dark antiskid coating to boot. All this effort is not surprising since it's object was the make the craft as waterproof and weather tight as possible. The hulls and decks (what you can see of them amid the equipment clutter) in the book's photographs are smooth in appearance with no planking of any kind in evidence. Russ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Michael Nixon" Subject Battle Class Destroyers G’Day My name is Michael Nixon. I am trying to locate as to where I can get a model of a Battle Class Destroyer from, if possible HMS CAMPERDOWN. Regards Michael Nixon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Ned Barnett Subject Modeling Question - Colors for USN S-Boat Submarines - PI, 12/7/41 In furthering my research into USN S-Boat submarines based in the PI on December 7, 1941, I have now received my resin model kit of that sub (thanks to all of you who referred me to the kit and vendor). So now I'm looking for authoritative information on the paint scheme worn by these rust-bucket subs at the time of Pearl Harbor. My assumption is that they were black (at least above the water line), but I'd like to know - full-hull, too (i.e., was it red-lead below?). If you know, please tell me. If you've got references you can refer me to, please share. One site that's got a lot of photos has them all in B&W without color comment captions, and while it shows a number of USN S-Boat submarines, none of them was based at Ogopogo (the Navy slang for Olongapo, home of the sub-base just off Subic Bay that housed the outcast S-Boat flotilla). So any help on colors - much appreciated. Thanks Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Subject Dog Boat Planking Many thanks for the responses and helpful info I have received, it seems the Dog Boat has quite a following (and in fact Roy Skeates won best warship at the IFOS in Portsmouth for his fantastic model) My copy of "Allied Coastal Forces" turned out to be rather faded, in a better copy it is clear that the planking is diagonal, I was fooled into thinking it parallel as it is cleanly cut at the chine line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "John Lambert" Subject A feast of answer- I Bit! Hi all The Flower Class Corvettes were indeed deigned off the drawing board as Coastal Escort Vessels. Such was the urgency that none were completed for any trials, to fill the obvious gaps of Anti-submarine vessels, that they were ordered straight off the drawing board in groups of 20 + . They were designed to be a cheap as possible, mass produced and capable of being crewed by a non regular crew in the main. Just a few key ratings. The main engine was standard, the boiler was no frills cylindrical, and the firing system was new and basic, but it worked. Very fortunately they were oil burning rather than coal fired. The main armament, the 4" Breech Loading gun, had been to sea previously in Coastal sloops of the Great War. The idea was that the ship could be built in just 6 months and mass produced. Initially they had a crew of just 47. (and 11" bilge keels). They filled a huge gap and were under constant development and modernisation. They were forced out into the Western Approaches because there was nothing else available. A shortage of destroyers and trawlers. The Admiralty had no Idea that France would fall at the outbreak of the war. The class were soon modified, from two to four Mark II depth charge throwers. Splinter protection around the guns. The secondary armament, designed for the 2 Pdr Mark VIII Mounting was seldom available, and the space was taken up by .303" Lewis guns or the steam powered Holman Projector. With the introduction of the Surface Search Radar (Type 271) in 1941 they were some of the first units to receive it. Due to their urgent need at sea, they were soon developed to carry more men. The hull sides were plated in for more accommodation. The bridges were redesigned. Three Drum boilers were fitted. They were very good sea boats, but very uncomfortable for the crew. (Like the HDML). More equipment added, the hull lines redesigned to throw waves away from the bow, and the size of the bilge keels was doubled to help reduce or slow the roll. So it went on until they were gradually phased out by the Ocean going Twin Screw Corvettes - The much larger and more efficient River Class. By late 1943 the Flowers were being overtaken by the slightly larger Castle Class, which used the same main engine, but built in those same small shipyards. Being longer they gained an extra half knot. I did my RNVR sea training aboard HMS Flint Castle in 1954. But they were designed for mid Atlantic, with longer range and improved equipment. The 9 Coastal Sloops of the Kingfisher class, were of only 500-580 tons displacement. Built from 1935-1939, they were steam turbine powered and capable of 20 knots. Too expensive to build in wartime the hull was over 200 ft long with a narrow beam. They were designed for coastal waters and were primarily anti-submarine vessels with a good outfit of depth charges. I have drawn HMS Kittiwake in full detail on five large sheets (L/S/151/A-E). They did not have the ability to be able to carry a greater armament due to their size. Now the Fairmile "D" question. Quite by chance I am working on a series of new drawings for the "D" class right now. Like all the Fairmile designs, they were built from kits supplied by the company to the multitude of small boatyards. The hulls were built of double diagonal mahogany planking. (as was the deck). Most wartime MTBs and Motor Launches employed this method. Only late in the war when these hard woods became short in supply were changes introduced. Vosper in their later 1944 design used sheet 5/8" thick marine ply for their decks. I still consider that the Modified Black Swans were one of the most efficient A/S vessels. Designed before the war, they were built right through to the end, although those constructed during the war had to accept less frills of war built units. Where else do you get an ocean escort vessel capable of almost 20 knots, with a full A/S and Radar outfit and the same AA armament as a Tribal Class Fleet destroyer ? No one mentions that ten Flowers (and trawlers) were loaned to the US Navy, with their trained crews when the American seaboard was wide open to U boat attack and the city lights were providing the backdrop, because the US lacked A/S experience. Enough from me. Yours "Aye" John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From aweiner601@optonline.net Subject Modeller required Hello Everyone, I was reaching out today, to a modeler who may live in the ST. Louis area (go Cardinals!)..who may be able to make a few dollars doing some minor work on a model that was shipped by me to a buyer there. I am the President of American Precision models, and as you all know, the nightmare of shipping!!! Well, it is not in very bad shape, but i would like to talk to you if you are interested in working on this. I ship all over the world and once in a while we have a mishap (once in a while!!). Please write me off list at aweiner601@optonline.net. if you are interested!! thanks again, artie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume