Subject: SMML VOL 2988 Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:55:08 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re SMML Drop-out Problems 2 Habbakuk 3 Re Habbakuk Project 4 Re Habbakuk Project 5 Re Habbakuk 6 Re Repulse to Renown 7 Re Heller 1/400 Scale HMS Vanguard (1946) kit? 8 Re HMS Repulse RDF 9 Re Habbakuk Project 10 U-boot type 23 11 Re MAC Ships 12 Incipient Senile Dementia 13 Re MAC Ships 14 A question of Scale? 15 Re Habbakuk Project -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1 new chatham books 2 1/450 Bismarck and Missouri kits ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From WVeigele@aol.com Subject Re SMML Drop-out Problems To Brian Taylor, Check your SPAM folder to see if the SMML page was sent there by mistake. Regards, Bill Veigele ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Alan Vanterpool Subject Habbakuk Early in the Second World War an eccentric inventor by the name of Pye convinced Winston Churchill and Lord Louis Mountbatten that an iceberg could be made into an aircraft carrier using a mixture of sawdust and ice as the structural material. This was at a time when there were no aircraft capable of flying to and loitering over the mid-Atlantic in the anti U-boat campaign. The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) was charged with undertaking the scientific experiments to determine the feasibility of the proposal. They chose Lake Louise in the Canadian Rockies as the site for the experiments - the Lake is fed by a glacier and never gets above 10 degrees Centigrade, it is very easy to block access to it, there is/was lots of accommodation, and it had relatively easy access from Ottawa. Although it is almost 2,000 miles from Ottawa - the HQ of NRC - both Ottawa and Lake Louise are on the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It was soon found that the idea was not feasible, since the structural properties of ice can't support the vibration of machinery, etc. But the great men insisted that work continue, which it did for two to three years, until longer range aircraft were introduced into service, as well as aircraft carriers, to close the mid-Atlantic gap. It doesn't appear that any plans of the ice aircraft carrier were ever prepared. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re Habbakuk Project George, out................ wrote >> . . . a (one of?) pet plan on Winston Churchill's - the Habbakuk Project. Anyone heard of it? << There is more than enough information on such a subject as this. I especially like what Wikipedia had to say about the project at http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habbakuk , and at http//jwgibbs.cchem.berkeley.edu/CFGoodeve/habakkuk.html . "'. . . it was projected to take $70 million and 8000 people working for 8 months to construct, an expenditure which the British were unwilling to make at the time on such an experimental craft. Experiments on ice and pykrete as construction materials were carried out at Lake Louise, Alberta and a small prototype was constructed at Patricia Lake, Alberta, measuring only 60 feet by 30 feet (18 by 9 m), but Habbakuk itself was never begun. "The name Habbakuk was an Admiralty clerk's misspelling of the biblical name Habakkuk. The choice of this name is said to be a reference to the project's ambitious goal ".be utterly amazed, for I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told." ( Habakkuk 15, NIV) And now for something completely different . . . '" H.M.S Habbakuk, Lord Louis Mountbatten - the British military's Chief of Combined Operations, called it, was to be constructed from 40-foot blocks of ice, his Habbakuk would be 2,000 feet long, 300 feet wide, with walls 40 feet thick. Its interior would easily accommodate 200 Spitfires. When there was a need for aircraft to protect convoys the RN built their CAM ships, and eventually the CVEs from merchantmen. What could be seriously considered with Pykete would be permanent buildings on top of glaciers or other far north facilities. SIR CHARLES GOODEVE, F.R.S. wrote in the London Evening Standard of 19th April 1951 (shortly after a letter to the Times on a similar topic). It was republished in the July issue of DISCOVERY Magazine the same year. DISCOVERY prefaced the article this way - "A GREAT deal of publicity has been given to Habakkuk - the unsinkable aircraft carrier which was to be made out of reinforced ice. That publicity was misleading in that it created the impression that Habakkuk was a practical proposition, whereas in fact it belonged to the realms of fantasy -it is probably no accident that something very like Habakkuk was brought into George Orwell's futuristic novel, "1984". "ONCE during the war an inventor brought forward the novel idea of a searchlight that would itself bring down any aircraft caught in its beam. The idea was to provide the searchlight with a button which when pressed would solidify the beam. By rapidly turning the searchlight downwards, one could 'wang' the aircraft on the ground. "The incidental details as to how to solidify the beam were, according to the inventor, "merely matters of research and development easily solvable by anyone who really believed in the idea". "Ice," it was pointed out, "was plentiful and didn't sink. Let us build large unsinkable aircraft carriers of ice and thus provide air cover for an attack on a remote and unprotected part of France. Steel limits the size of our carriers to tens of thousands of tons; with ice we can throw off our shackles and build carriers of millions of tons each. "Ice is plentiful! Ice is unsinkable! Ice is hard! The enemy will never suspect it! Ice will win the war!" "At first the scientists and engineers working on their radar, their jet-propulsion, their tank-landing craft and the thousand and one other developments which were to be put in the hands of our fighting men, laughed. Ice may be hard, but it had no strength. "Their laughter turned to alarm when they learned of the long-haired scientists, the admirals and generals who had been swayed by the magnetic personality of the inventor. "Here was no ordinary man; this was no ordinary way to win a war." And they thought that we Americans could be completely silly, all we could do was island hop across the Pacific. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "David T. Okamura" Subject Re Habbakuk Project There's quite a bit about Project Habbakuk on the Web Wikipedia entries on "Project Habbakuk" and "Pycrete" http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habbakuk http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycrete Other commentaries http//www.defensetech.org/archives/000449.html http//www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php http//www.de220.com/Strange%20Stuff/StrangeStuff.htm A small cutaway illustration of the Habbakuk, showing construction details http//www.de220.com/Strange%20Stuff/TEST-80G702435.jpg An "alternate history" account of the Habbakuk had it been built http//www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/habbak_f.htm Hope this helps, David T. Okamura ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Ned Barnett Subject Re Habbakuk George Within the past 12-18 months, I read about this - I think it was in Wings or Airpower (to sister pubs in the US), but I can't swear to it (I read a lot of aviation, naval and mil-hist mags, and keeping them straight is a challenge) - but they've got a website, and it might be online. Apparently Churchill was serious, and some poor sod actually had to develop plans. However, it was more to be a floating airfield base than a carrier (I'm not sure how you'd place boilers in ice, nor am I sure how long the ice would last once you fired them up) but plans were for a speed of 10 knots, so go figure. It would have been built out of around 3 million blocks of sawdust-coated ice blocks, kept cold by a refrigeration plant, armed with 40 or so 4.5-inch AA guns, 2000 feet long and intended to put aircraft in the North Atlantic gap. Churchill took it seriously, until he saw the cost and labor demands (8,000 men working for 8 months at a cost of $70 million - on an experimental idea that might or might not work). Do a google search on "Project Habbakuk" and you'll find a lot of references, including http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habbakuk, which explains how the name is an Admiralty clerk's misspelling of a biblical prophet's name. Ned Barnett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From David Wells Subject Re Repulse to Renown John Sweetman typed >> Does any one have any advice/ notes/ info about how to convert Frog (Ex Airfix) HMS Repulse into HMS Renown, about Mid WWII, say 1943? << "Allan Plumb" replied >> At first level, maybe grab a Repulse (hull and turrets) and an early war KGV (superstructure) and I suspect a UK CV could be a source for the 4.5" turrets. Haven't looked at my Ark Royal enough to have an opinion. << I disagree somewhat. The big problem with the Airfix Repulse hull for a Renown conversion is the bulges. From everything I've read, (including Raven & Roberts) Renown's bulges were smaller. Further, I think that Renown's forward superstructure would also be substantially smaller. It would be more comparable to that on Airfix's Warspite kit, but even that would require considerable modification. Of course, I have attempted to convert the Airfix Belfast into a 1/600 Sheffield by cutting out the bulges, (and shortening the hull) so it might not be impossible. I attempted to solve the problem by carving a wooden hull, but I got the bulges on that one wrong too. It's still awaiting correction, someday. Further, I don't know of a UK CV kit that would provide the correct 4.5" guns, at least not in 1/600 scale. I have a set of WEM 1/600 4.5" guns stored away in case I ever get the hull issues sorted out. >> Other than the hull and main guns, Repulse and Renown were no longer very similar. (And even the main armour was different, since the 1920's.) << Agreed. >> The best advice is get a copy of Raven and Roberts British Battleships of WWII, and stare at it for a long long time. << Also agreed. But even Raven & Roberts don't have great data on Renown's bulges. There are only a few cross sections. Better than nothing, I suppose, but not what we need. >> (And the Cruisers book should be useful for Suffolk to Dorsetshire. Always my favorite County-class, only because I built one in 1/1200 40-odd years ago when that's all there was and I knew absolutely nothing.) << I'm still jealous that you have the Raven & Roberts cruiser book and I don't. Another of my long-stalled projects is HMS London....... David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From David Wells Subject Re Heller 1/400 Scale HMS Vanguard (1946) kit? "Nick Rogers" wrote >> Is there such a thing as a Heller 1/400 scale kit of HMS Vanguard,the Royal Navy's last battleship? As mentioned by John Sweetman in SMML Vol 2986 of yesterday. I have heard of Heller's Dunkerque and Strasbourg 1/400 scale battlecruiser kits which I hope will one day be re-released but not of any HMS Vanguard kit? Can John or anyone else on SMML advise? >> I note that no mention of HMS Vanguard is made on the fabulous Ship Kits List Website, as in http//www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/rajen.html#Heller << I talked to John and Christian off-list, and they came to the conclusion that it was in fact the Hasegawa/Frog kit that they were thinking of, which is nominally 1/450 scale, but in reality more like 1/432. You can read my remarks on that kit on Rajen's List, but the short version is that it's not very detailed, and not entirely accurate. One thing I am curious about is whether the Frog version came out before the Hasegawa version. Apparently, they are from the same mold. The Vanguard kit does have many features in common with other Hasegawa 1/450 kits, which makes me think that the mold might have originated with Hasegawa. "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re HMS Repulse RDF Art Nicholson wrote about the HMS Repulse RDF that he stated that >> . . . some correspondence with Ken Armstrong when I was researching my book on the Prince of Wales and Repulse, and I'm pretty sure he told me that the radar you're asking about was a Type 286P; somewhere there should be a drawing of its antenna. I'm also pretty sure he drew a diagram showing that radar at the after end of the foretop. << Mr. Nicholson is only correct in the above statement in that Repulse had a radar set. According to Maurice P. Northcott's Ensign 8 title of RENOWN AND REPULSE clearly shows that the two photographs of Repulse that were dated as being in late 1941, that the Type 284 radar was clearly on the forward control tower and was fitted on both ships on 1 January 1941, atop the forward director. It should also be noted that there was an AAA mount atop the rear mast's starfish. Renown's 1936 reconstruction included "(a) comprehensive radar outfit was installed together with supporting masts and a completely new air defence position was mounted atop the new bridge structure, which completely replaced the original one." The Type 284, for main gunnery in large ships, entered widespread service use in 11 December 1940. It is known that the Type 279M, a close range AAA control for added gunnery ranging capabilities, was first used on HMS Prince of Wales on 31 March 1941. HMS Hood received her Type 279M Aerial Warning Radar during her 16 January - 15 March 1941 refit at Rosyth. Both the Types 280 and 281 were available as air-warning sets and were available in 1940, but was fitted to cruisers. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From David Wells Subject Re Habbakuk Project Yes, I've heard of this. There really was such a project. It was the subject of an article in Air & Space Smithsonian magazine some years back. It was not to be made of pure ice, though. The material was stuff called Pykrete, which was a combination of ice and wood pulp. Apparently, it was remarkably strong. Back when more of the model ship gang used to hang out on the netnews group rec.models.scale, we used to talk about HMS Habbakuk being the only RN ship which could launch the Fairley Fruitbat, the worlds first (and last) 4-engined carrier-based heavy interceptor. ;-) More information at http//www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/habbak_f.htm. Believe it at your own risk....... "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http//home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "Parkinson, Phil MAJ" Subject U-boot type 23 Hi Rick, The details are as follows - suggest you check out NKRs website. Special Hobby 1/72 injection moulded U-boat kits SN001 U-boot type 23 Cheers Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "GRAHAM BOAK" Subject Re MAC Ships >> It seems that some Sea Hurricanes also used that inscription. As you said 836 Squadron supplied MAC's aircraft and also to CAM ships. << I know of no Sea Hurricanes with "Merchant Navy" inscriptions. The Sea Hurricanes (and Fulmars) were initially supplied by 804 Sq, from May 1941 to May 1942, when the task was taken over by the RAF's Merchant Navy Fighter Unit. The MNFU seems to have slipped between the cracks of RN and RAF when it comes to having their aircraft history recorded. There is no mention of 836 Sq supplying aircraft to the CAM ships - it was previously a TBR unit with Swordfish operating over the English Channel before coming the Swordfish pool for the MACs.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From John Sweetman Subject Incipient Senile Dementia Dear Folks,(especially Nick Rogers way down in Kiwi Land!) Heading says it all, was relieing on memory of a catalogue some 4 or 5 years old, which of course as we have moved house since then is no longer available!! Typical! However in emails & conversations with our own David Wells, & Malcolm Rollings of King KIt in the UK have established it was not Heller HMS Vanguard, but Hasewgawa 1/450 scale whichDavid states is probably nearer 1/4007 isalso likely to be the old Frog mould. So apologies all round, that said, it is probably as rare as hens teeth as I have not seen for a considerable amount of time. Next Ref. HMS Renown & Dorsetshire conversions. Sage advice to get hold of Raven & Roberts Battleships + Cruisers of WWII, and look at for a long time, especially if one does not get fixated, for ideas on Kit bashing/Scratch building/Carving fixtures etcetera. My problem is THAILAND!!!, land of smiles Etc. Does any one have any idea how to obtain these 2 volumes - ISBN No's, Price, Outlet etc, also Weight as will have to come by airmail etc Best Regards John Sweetman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From George Colleen Hargreaves Subject Re MAC Ships Hi, Via NNT Models you can get the HP Models kit HPGB-045 CAM ship Empire Moon. NNT is at www.nntmodell.com Cheers, George ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "Brett Soden" Subject A question of Scale? Hi all, I have just enlaged John Roberts' TBD HMS Velox which was originally printed at a scale of 1/8 inch which = 1ft by 200% (and yes, it's big). Which I now asume is at a scale 1/4 = 1ft (though I could be wrong, as my maths is rather bad). But now that I have done this, can some kind person out there who has a better grasp mathemattics then I do, could now tell me what scale my new drawings would be in millimeters please? Any assistance in this matter would be greatfully appreciated. Brett Soden Townsville Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From chris Tilley Subject Re Habbakuk Project Yes, Iceberg carriers were put forward as an unsinkable stopgap in 1941 I believe. The ice was to be infused with a substance called Pykrete, invented by one Geoffrey Pyke, which should have given the ice the consistency of concrete but retaining its' bouyancy. Even though it sounds insane, probably the reason it never actually happened was due to America entering the war and lots of shipyards becoming available to make 'proper' metal carriers. Still, the idea of a two-million ton displacement unsinkable carrier has a certain appeal... Chris T ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Randy Short Subject new chatham books Snyder and Short has the new Chatham Shipcraft books #3 Yorktown Class Carriers #4 Type 7 U-boats We offer them at $17 each, with book tate shipping an option. Normal retail for these books is $21.95 We also have the first 2 books in the series-Graf Spee and KG5. Randy Short, rshort@macnexus.org www.shipcamouflage.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Steve Norton Subject 1/450 Bismarck and Missouri kits Not wanting to come across as an opportunist, but thought someone might like first chance at a couple of out-of-production (I think?) kits. If this is not suitable for posting, I understand and will just put them straight onto eBay. 1/450 Hasegawa/Minicraft DKM Bismarck and USS Missouri (motorized) kits. Just wanted to give subscribers fist pick at these old kits before I post them on eBay. Both complete and unstarted, boxes show storage wear, but what can you expect, they've been around a while, but make a great looking battlewagon. Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume