Subject: SMML VOL 3009 Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:21:32 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Damaged re pristine 2 Re USS Wolverine and Sable 3 Bloody Decks and Broken Men 4 Re 1/72-scale ship models 5 Re USS Sable & Wolverine 6 free speech 7 Re USS Wolverine and Sable - paddle-wheel training carriers 8 Battle Class Destroyers 9 Re 172 plastic Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Allen Stevens" Subject Re Damaged re pristine Interesting debate, personally I build pristine models (too scared to start muzzing up something I just completed) all of my babies sit in glass cases and look mighty fine (model makers modesty!) I mainly build Victorian era warships which were immaculate as were most between the wars ships but even these ships had a certain amount of wear but how much of it would actually show ? if you look at aerial pictures of warships taken from about the height you would be viewing a 1700 kit it is difficult to make out anything but the most grubby of marks (funnel soot etc) carriers of course with constant activity on deck are an exception to this. I have seen some absolutely superb weathered ships but I have seen some horrors where people have gone way overboard. I think any weathering should be subtle unless working in a large scale. I have models of the Flower class corvette in both 172 and 1700 if you look at the respective sizes would the weathering required for a 172 scale ship look correct on 1700 ? perhaps a subtle amount of hull and funnel wear but anything else might look over the top. I take the point re damaged ships and the end result of the damage but perhaps by occasionally building a sinking or damaged ship it will make us remember the brave souls who died fighting her. A model of a damaged ship is only the same as looking at pictures of the real thing and we all have plenty of those type of books on our reference shelves but each to his own as my Granny used to say. Regards to all Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Richa5011@aol.com Subject Re USS Wolverine and Sable >> Does anyone know whether they were used as aircraft transports at war's end as distinct from training duties? << No...both ships were limited to the "Great Lakes" and primarily operated on Lake Michigan. Because of the restrictions placed upon them by being lake bound, they would have been wholly ineffective as aircraft transports as the aircraft were capable of flying farther/faster than the ships could travel. The December Aeroplane has yet to make it to California, but I look forward to the article and photos. Nat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Ned Barnett Subject Bloody Decks and Broken Men >> the end result of a damaged ship is dead and dying men,thats not what I think we should be recreating or attempting to do. << I've just got to disagree here. War is not pretty, and military ships are built for war, not for Navy Day pageants. Sure, you can model a dockside scene with a ship just out of drydock - it will look pristine. Or you can model a Navy Day warship parade, with rows of white-clad sailors lining the rail. Both look gorgeous, if done right. But the natural element of a warship is war - that's what they're built for - and a natural element of war is casualties. I have modeled numerous kits showing battle damage - including the human kind. Most of those are not ship models (but only because of scale) - but I've got planned several ship/boat dioramas that include wounded/dead. One is the Lady Lex at Coral Sea, bloodied but unbowed. Another is of the CL-57 (USS Montpelier) off Okinawa - she survived four Kamikaze attacks - one hit her, but bounced off before blowing up, ensuring that Ensign Barnett would live to father the son who writes these words ... More interesting to me (only because of scale) is my ideas on modeling PT combat and Vietnam-era Riverine combat (I have a buddy who was cox'n of a Pibber - his personal weaponry included a racked sawed-off combat shotgun and hand grenades, suggesting that combat was rather "close"). Men who served, fought and died on those boats deserve to be memorialized, but to do so without showing the blood-price they paid is, to me, an absurd notion. More than ships (because of scale) I've modeled aircraft kits showing battle damage - including, in a couple of cases, shot-up cockpits and crews. Generally, I have modeled crashed combat aircraft, with the crew in "escape mode" - I've done vignettes of those in Vietnam (an F-100D) and NW Europe (a P-38 with pilot on the run from a Wehrmacht hunt-and-grab team), but I have done the shot-up cockpit scenes, too. I'd love to do an aerial diorama of Saburo Sakai (or more appropriately, I guess, Sakai Saburo) on his heroic flight back from being shot all-to-hell over Guadalcanal - he lost one eye, was shot in multiple limbs, had facial wounds, etc. - often the plane wanted to fly inverted - but he still got it back 700 or so miles to Rabaul, in one of the greatest exhibits of raw flying skill and extraordinary human courage I've ever heard of). That doesn't glorify combat - it shows the price paid - but it does glorify the man who could rise above disabling wounds (to self and plane) to show what real pilots, and real warriors, can do. I've also done a lot of "battle damage" armor and figure dioramas - and in those, blood and wounds are often necessary elements. My vignette of Camarone (the famous French Foreign Legion battle) is an example - 62 Foreign Legionnaires were cut off in a Mexican hacienda compound by about 1,200 Mexican regulars; they held out for about 12 hours, until there were just five ambulatory Legionnaires left - each with but a single round of ammunition left. They swore an oath on the wooden hand of their commander (Captain Danjou, if memory serves), then fixed bayonets and charged - 5 against 1,200. The Mexican colonel commanding was so impressed that he used the flat of his sword to beat away his own soldiers, saving the lives of several of these Legionnaires. My scene shows just one (wounded - they were all already wounded) man charging out the battle-damaged Hacienda door. It captures glory, courage - and the price paid by those who exhibit such courage. I see nothing wrong with modeling dead and dying men - when and if that modeling tells a story worth telling. Anyone who sees things otherwise is certainly entitled to his/her opinion - and there are great civilian-subject kits out there that don't "require" blood-and-guts in order to show them in their proper setting. I've built many of them, and will do so again. But when I want to capture war-fighting technology in it's natural habitat, and when I want to do so in diorama format, I look for scenes that show men at their bravest and most noble - and those almost always involve battle damage of the human kind. Real soldiers, sailors and airmen who see these know that I'm saluting their heroism, not exploiting their suffering ... Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Reynold.Oh@defence.gov.au Subject Re 1/72-scale ship models To Les Rodgers, 1. Yes. In 1/72-scale, Airfix makes the British High-speed Air-Sea-Rescue launch, the German E-Boat & S-Boat and the British MTB (Motor Torpedo Boat). Revell makes the PT.109 (sometimes marketed with other Hull numbers) and of course, their type VII(?) U-Boat. ICM make a type XXIII U-Boat. These are all injection-moulded plastic. George, out.................. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Reynold.Oh@defence.gov.au Subject Re USS Sable & Wolverine To John Reid, 1. In short, no. These ships were used to train pilots in landing on a moving aircraft carrier. They did not have an embarked air-group, so each pilot had bring his own aircraft (yes, a poor joke). These two ships were confined to the Great Lakes. Transporting a small number of aircraft across/around the lakes would have been quicker (and more cost-effective) by flying them. I believe that the US had an organisation (the WASPS?) - similar to the RAF Ferry Pilots - for exactly that purpose. The photo you refer-to possibly shows the training of US Navy aircaft handlers in storage or rapid launching of multiple aircraft - that's my guess. 2. Many thanks for the info on the magazine. I will certainly look for it. George, out.................. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From Subject free speech Rupe Im much obliged for your tolerance, however despite your admonition never to build a warship again I fully intend to do so. The last time I looked everyone was entitled to their opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "Doug Wilde" Subject Re USS Wolverine and Sable - paddle-wheel training carriers John, A member at the Steel Navy site kindly sent me scans of the article. One of the best I have read so far. For once someone has done some research although more than once a phrase sounded familiar. The photographs all are from NARA II and the printer must have switched photos of the SEEANDBEE (C&B) for the GREATER BUFFALO. In answer to your question, no, never transported aircraft. They were decommissioned and stricken might quick after the war ended. Became pier queens. One enterprising representative proposed using them for temporary housing for returning vets. Never was acted upon. The photograph of the USS SABLE's island (80-G-354751) is interesting for it shows how the two forward doors were removed and plated over. I've not found the Shipalt for that change, yet. Doug Wilde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From Sell4853@aol.com Subject Battle Class Destroyers Good information relating to The Battle Class destroyers can be found at http//www.tosd.demon.co.uk/class.htm and at http//www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/battle_class.htm Norman Sells Tenterden UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Daniel Bauer" Subject Re 172 plastic Models Hi! Yes, there all new and current 1/72 models out there. Revell of Germany's Type VII C U-Boat makes the Snowberry look like a bath-tub toy! They also have an S 100 Class S Boat that is also very good. They will be coming out with a new Type VII C/40 U-Boat soon. There are other manufactures of good 1/72 scale kits. There are even some 1/72 scale resin kits out there. Do a search on the internet or even E-Bay. You will be suprised with what you find! Best Regards, Dan Bauer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume