Subject: SMML VOL 3028 Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 01:01:51 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re Polaris sub propeller 2 Re Computers in the RN 3 Accentor Class Minesweepers 4 Re Museum Ships 5 Re Museum Ships 6 Re Iowa's ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "Rick Nelson" Subject Re Polaris sub propeller From ives100@aol.com >> Actually, I have photos of the 611 boat (an Ethan Allen class) and she definitely has a 5 bladed "speed" propeller while under construction. I'm not sure at what point the change was made to the 7 bladed J prop being installed as original equipment. Since the boats were built out to '67, I would expect the Lafayettes and Franklins had the 7 bladed version from the start. << I do not think any boats operated with the 5-blade prop, maybe some of the 598 class for a while. We called them "yard" props. I know the Houston SSBN609, also a Newport News Ethan Allen Class boat, only ran a 7-blade prop when it first went operational in '62. I doubt that the 611 was commissioned with the 5-blade prop still installed. Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Rick Nelson" Subject Re Computers in the RN > From >> John mentions, "a large deck of punch cards" which reminded me of my days coding on IBM 360s. I guess there aren't too many folks who still know why a heavy dark line was drawn diagonally across a card deck with a marker. << Well, at least one reader know why!!!!!!! Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Mark Micucci" Subject Accentor Class Minesweepers Butch I would go to The Chain Locker when looking for any information on American Minesweepers. The Webb address is http//www.minesweep.org/chainlocker.htm it’s a great site and if anyone knows where to find the information you need or to direct you to where you can find it, they do. Good luck and if I find any information will forward it to you. Keep the Faith, Mark EM3 USS Peacock MSC198 “Any ship can be a minesweeper….once” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Bradford Chaucer Subject Re Museum Ships From LymanJohnF@aol.com >> This may seem like a radical thought, but do we really need to preserve all the IOWA class hulls as museums? We seem to go through preservation cycles - not saving anything, and then saving too much. There are four ESSEX class museum ships, but we failed to save Halsey's and Spruance's flagship ENTERPRISE (CV-6) or the light carrier CABOT. There are already six museum battleships, but of those, only one (MASSACHUSETTS versus JEAN BART) ever actually fought another battleship. There are plenty of FLETCHER, SUMNER and GEARING museums, but where is a four-piper, or a SIMS, or a BENSON-LIVERMORE? IOWA and WISCONSIN should be drydocked, dismantled, and their 16-inch turrets and barbettes reinstalled in new construction fire support monitors (for want of a better term). The Marines would get back the naval gunfire support capability they need, there is still a huge inventory of 16" projectiles and powder, and modern sabot and precision guidance technology is available to improve range and accuracy by several orders of magnitude. And, an incoming 16" bullet can't be shot down by some weasel with a shoulder-fired SAM, and it has no pilot to be captured and paraded on Third World News. Just a thought. << I agree that to much emphasis is spent on preserving ships for their wow value as opposed to historical significance, however that said, I wonder if anyone has made a comparison between the big carriers and battleships vs smaller ships like the Sullivans and Little Rock or Salem which are not grouped with an aircraft carrier or BBS visitorwise. Sadly I suspect that it is the Carriers and BBS' that attract the crowds. That all said, it is criminal that so much of our military history has become razor blades, however the same is largely true for aircraft where there are no existing restored examples of many famous planes from WWI and WWII. It's slightly better but not by much for armor. At least there we have several comprehensive collections of armor (albeit some in terrible condition) and many examples as displays in front of armories around the country. I guess it would be rather difficult to park a destroyer in an armory parking lot!!! As to preserving the big guns, I go back and forth on this one. I suspect that the term for what you propose is Littoral Battleship or Littoral gunship. There have been many suggestions centering around rehabing the Iowa and Wisconsin and turning them over to the Marines as shore bombardment platforms. The problem as always is the cost of both manning, running and maintaining these ships. The big guns are certainly effective in the bombardment role, but the cost may well be prohibitive. As to your suggestion about mounting the guns on a smaller hull, I suspect that little short of a hull the size of an Iowa could accomodate them. The forces on the hull when they fire must be incredible, also they would make for a very top heavy situation, and bear in mind that there is a tremendous amount of structure below decks. The barbettes extend almost to the lowest level of the hull on an Iowa. I doubt you could put on on any hull that is less deep. The third major issue is maintainability of the guns, First the shells and propellant are over 50 years old. I don't know whether they can be made new today, at least by a US onshore company I do know that we can no longer manufacture a gun barrel or liner of that size. So to the extent they remain useable or repairable, we are operating with a left over stock of Barrels and liners from WWII. We would actually have to build a new foundry and armory to manufacture new ones and I suspect that the environmental permitting woulkd cost more than th ecost of keeping an Iowa in service!!! The bottom line appears that even though keeping the 16inchers in service in one maner or another would have merit from a tactical point of view, the logistics and economics would sink it forthwith. Regards Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Ned Barnett Subject Re Museum Ships John - I'm sure I won't be the only one here to raise an outcry against your rather heretical views, but I have to ensure that there's at least one. OK, the US blew it with the Enterprise (and the Cabot). And sure, there are a fair number of preserved battleships. But that's no justification for not saving the Iowas. Here are a few good reasons TO save the Iowas 1. They are popular - there is something about a big-gun battleship that draws people - and once those people have seen a battleship up close and personal, they generally tend to be "fans" forever after. 2. The US Navy can use all the helpful PR it can get - and museum ships are great recruiting tools. 3. They are beautiful, elegant and awesome - beauty needs no justification beyond itself. 4. They are historical, and we're already far too casual about letting go our history (USS Enterprise, for example). I belong to an organization trying to save US Civil War battlefields - by actually buying the land - that's absurd - our tax dollars should preserve our heritage - but nonetheless, it's true that only private initiatives seem to be working. This applies to ships as well as battlefields. 5. They will serve a better purpose as museum ships than as razor blades. 6. In the continental US, there are no battleship memorials farther west than the Texas coast - why should the East have all the fun? 7. The decision on what to do with Iowa has generally anti-military politicians sqabbling among themselves (that alone is worth the price of admission, to see Sen. Feinstein turn on the government she once led as mayor ... for being too liberal and too absurdly blind to the values embodied by American patriotism). I've been on every battleship I have had the chance to visit - and have missed more than I have visited. I'd like to be able to visit one in this lifetime, without having to fly to Hawaii. However, as for the idea of turret monitors for Marine fire support, if this was a real option, I'd favor pulling some real guns out of the museum ships and substituting accurate replicas (on turrets not open for internal inspection) - but those ships don't need the heavy armor of the existing turrets, and they're unlikely to have sufficient draft to need the whole powder-train/shell-hoist kind of thing. The guns themselves would be sufficient, while still permitting the ships to serve as museums for all time. Or so it seems to me. Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "DUANE A CURTIS" Subject Re Iowa's The reasons why you don't see some of the other ship's is that first what shape is the hull in, and how much repair will it take some one to get it back into good shape. Also how good of shape is it in inside for tourist to see that ship inside as well. What shape are the decks in as well, after all you wouldn't want to walking around and fall trough the deck to the next deck below now would you? You also have to look at how much is it going to cost to get the ship all painted up as well. For the most part any one that is thinking about a ship to become a museum they are going to go with the one that will be cheeper for them to maintain, after all the Iowa's were just recently mouthball and then placed as a museum, which means it was much more cost efective to use those ship's vise othe BB's. History does not have a choice as to which ship's are used or not used. What does have a choice is the group of people that are trying to save a little part of our Naval past ship's. After all the ship that has been both maintained well in it's mouthball stage and by the crew that served onboard her before hand is what makes a ship show up again as a museum. Duane Curtis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume