Subject: SMML VOL 3036 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:33:36 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Re USS North Carolina 2 Re Museum Ships 3 Re Renwal Polaris kits 4 Re Yorktown/Patriot's Point 5 CALIBRE 35, 1/72 Armour and Ship resin model kits 6 Re Renwal 1/200 Ethan Allen Submarine kit 7 Re Vacuform machine 8 Re Renwal Polaris subs 9 Gearbox Toys preassembled and prepainted 1/700 scale ships 10 Re MV "Christmas Seal" 11 Re Modeler's Vacuform ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Jodie Peeler Subject Re USS North Carolina hello all -- Leslie D. Foran wrote >> The USS North Carolina is an excellent ship to visit to see a fast battleship in her WWII condition. I forgot to mention her as a site I had visited this summer, but I found she compares very favorably with both the Massachusetts and the Alabama. North Carolina is displayed in her camo colors and retains her 20mm AA fit. She also offers an evening light-and sound show display, which I was unable to stay for but would have been wothwhile. She was not difficult to find or get access to. << Hate to say it, but according to some information on board, "The Showboat" sound and light show is no longer being offered. Ralph and I were aboard USS NC last month and the bleachers appeared to be in the midst of being torn down. I hate that, having been able to see it in 1990 and finding it very impressive. Of the historic ships I've been aboard North Carolina has been the one that I've found most consistently well-maintained (of course, as a "ship of state" and as the only ship in the museum, she has some advantages). The displays on board are also the best, very skillfully using oral history to add context to what you're seeing. I wish some others (notably a huge one in my home state) would emulate that. I can't add much to what Shirley has said, as for my money she's pretty much nailed some key issues about the whole ship-saving business. Happy new year, all. Jodie Peeler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "John Snyder" Subject Re Museum Ships >> while we're on the subject of accessibility, how would you characterize the location of the Red Oak Victory? << At the moment, terrible. However, since Richmond is planning a major museum center for the nearby former Ford (IIRC) plant and plans to move the RED OAK VICTORY there, it should improve (assuming the plans go forward). Best regards, John Snyder White Ensign Models http//WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Ives100@aol.com Subject Re Renwal Polaris kits "Matty" wrote >> HA - Rick, I can see where you're going with this thread! LOL what-all would you (and all you other good folks) ideally like to see in a resin accurization kit for the old Renwal 1/200 SSBN? << As far as the exterior, the Ken Hart article in the SubCommittee report covers the steps needed to improve accuracy. If you want a really accurate model, buy the YKM resin kit of the Simon Bolivar or Daniel Webster in 1/350. The hulls are dead on from the plans I have in hand. As for a resin interior accuracy kit, the only plans which show details of the engineering spaces are in the National Archives in Maryland (Archives II), and are NOT available to the public. Even at that, these plans are of the old Abraham Lincoln (SSBN-602), a GW class SSBN, which were based on a Skipjack conversion plan (SCB-180A). Later SCB-180 (Ethan Allen) and SCB-216 (Lafayette) are not at all in any public collection to my knowledge. NavSea does not want to release these, even though all the S5W reactors & propulsion plants are now out of service with the retirement last year of Parche. The Renwal (Revell) kits feature solid decks back in the propulsion spaces, and the decks are really more akin to wide servicing catwalks than to solid decks. The Renwal kits ar also missing such features as a maneuvering room (always nice to have an area to control the propulsion machinery, turbogenerators, and reactor from....) and auxilary machinery rooms. The model even lacks a propulsion shaft entering the engineering spaces (along with the shaft seal, thrust block, reduction gears, condensers, turbogenerators, etc., etc.). Not sure exactly HOW Renwal thought the propeller was made to turn. The overall general arrangement of these areas can be deduced from the SSBN 611 TAB book and other sources, but specifics are still held tightly. Even areas that are not "off limits" such as the torpedo room are wrong on the Renwal (Revell), as the torpedo area is "necked in" and the hull is double in this area, with the ballast tanks between the inner and outer hulls. All the Renwal kits were a generic 24 inches long (400 scale feet); the different versions of the submarines varied from 382 ft (GW) to 410 ft. (Ethan Allen) to 425 ft. (Lafayettes). Later boats (Ethan Allen class on) had 4 torpedo tubes, the earlier Skipjack based design retained 6 tubes. My point is that there is a real inherent limit to the accuracy one can obtain with these kits. Trying to build an accurate resin "interior" would entail a lot of work, some guesswork, and I have no idea if it would sell well enough to be worth it. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From CokerRE@aol.com Subject Re Yorktown/Patriot's Point The commentary on museum ships has made many excellent points. One thing that the Yorktown and Patriot's Point have that the others lack is land for development. When the Yorktown was in the planning stages in the early 1970s, the powers that be in South Carolina who were led by then retired Admiral Herman Kossler realized that money was the make or break factor with museum ships. The State of South Carolina did not have the resources to pour money into such a ship year after year on an eternal basis. Fortunately there was a dredge disposal sight on Charleston Harbor with a great view of the old city that was right by the main ship channel and perfect for a development. Fortunately the state had title to the property so persuading the legislature to turn it over to a public authority was pushed and came off. This was at a time (early 1970s) when tourism was sparse in South Carolina and most development money was aimed at industrial recruitment. Despite a traditionally anti-Charleston sentiment in the South Carolina legislature, the powers that be in Charleston were able to persuade the state powers to pass the proposal. They did so with one proviso, that Patriot's Point receive state funds for only a given period. I do not remember the exact time or numbers but something like $100,000 per year for five years sticks in my mind--a large sum for a poor state in those days. Somehow Admiral Kossler's (his sub sank the Jap carrier Zuikaku in the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944) people pulled off bringing the Yorktown to Charleston, building a large concrete pier to dock her and providing parking for visitiors. After about a year of preparation work the ship was opened to visitors somewhere around 1975. By giving the development authority title to the land (several hundred acres of prime waterfront land) and the ability to borrow money in the bond market at state government rates; the Yorktown and its consort ships would have a steady source of non-public money to use for the forseeable future. Unfortunately the board that was set up to run the thing got into bed with some unproven developers in the 1980s which subsequently went bankrupt and cost the state almost $10 million. By the 90s they were able to get another developer who put up a hotel and another group built a golf course on part of the property. None of the land was sold. The developers were given long term leases with regular payments to Patriot's Point. Today the system is working satisfactorily but the lost time in the 1980s has the entire project about ten years behind schedule. However the strong tourist economy in Charleston, SC with Fort Sumter, Civil War sites, and the Charleston Historic District allow each to feed on the other for a strong tourist draw. The trick is in the marketing and getting visitors to come to Charleston which still remains off the beaten path (55 miles off I-95 and expensive to get to by air--a captive local market). By comparison Savannah is less than 20 miles off I-95 and much cheaper to fly into and out of. Patriot's Point today suffers from the declining numbers of World War II veterans and the general anti-military feeling in the civilian population. However it is in the South which still remains the most patriotic and militaristic section of the USA. The staff has used the ship as an educational tool to fantastic success and each week end school age kids (boyscouts, etc.) spend the week end aboard ship like World War II sailors eating and sleeping where the sailors of old lived. Someone could write a book about the ups and downs of the Patriot's Point Authority but the real story is in the political machinations that went on behind the scenes--like everything in SC. PC Coker ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Harold Stockton" Subject CALIBRE 35, 1/72 Armour and Ship resin model kits The Czech model company CALIBRE 35 has ventured into a set of their Calibre 72 series of 1/72 Armour and Ship kits, with their 72012 - German WWII Pontoon and 72013 - LSSC - US Fast River Boat (Vietnam war ) kits. Their 72012 - German WWII Pontoon kit is a tabletop configured resin model model as probably is the LSSC below. They recommend buying more of these twin pontton and road sections to make up a complete pontton bridge. But considering the not inexpensive price of a single kit, this could do some serious damage to one's modelling pocketbook. But this kit is of an interesting though limited "water" related subjects, though as a floating barge for an S-boat, this could be a possible consideration in a port scene. The LSSC (Light SEAL Support Craft) - US Fast River Boat (Vietnam war ) kit appears to be a nice addition to anyone's 1/72 scale fleet collection, though it does seem to be of the tabletop hull configuration. This company's 72002 - railroad two piece rail sections could be used effectively in a dock scene for any 1/72 scale dock scene. Though this company specializes in 1/35 scale resin conversion kits for the armor fans out there, they should be encouraged into their foray into the 1/72 scale line of resin kits, especially if they are going to increase their line of Vietnam era Riverine craft. Contact with the company can be made at info@calibre35.cz Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From beyondsun@mindspring.com Subject Re Renwal 1/200 Ethan Allen Submarine kit Dave, it's true resin costs something, but producing a solid, one-peice rudder is about the simplest and easiest casting imagineable. And, as a lot of folks are already interested in buying resin propellers (Thank You!), in marginal cost increase would be minimal. Particularly if any of you fine gentlemen would be willing to loan me the master...? Cheers, Matty P.S. Tom, same goes for the sail planes, buddy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Bradford Chaucer Subject Re Vacuform machine From Tom Ruprecht >> Another place to look for a vacuform is the dental industry. Not only dental laboratories but your local dentist may have one, typically the stage is about 6 inches square. The old Mattel vacuform was smaller, maybe four inches and required closely spaced holes around the edges. The dental versions take more types and thicknesses of plastics than the toy one, also. If you want to buy one you may want to try eBay. << Building a vacuum forming machine is not difficult. First decide how big a piece of plastic you want to be able to handle. Now, build a box frame oit of wood trim stock, the surface dimensions to be wider than the plastic by twice the max size you decided on for max size piece of plastic and about 2-3 in high. If you can, provide a rabbit both top and bottem faces of the frame, to hold in the top and bottom face piecesOn one side, drill a 1/1-4 in dia hole and seal in a short length of plastic pipe. The pipe should be a snug fir with the end of a shop-vac or other vacuum cleaner hose. Seal the edges of the pipe, bth inside and out with rtv or caulk. Get a square of masonite or 1/4 in plywood cut to the inside dimension of the rabbit (above) or if no rabbit to the outside dimensions of the frame and glue and screw it into one face. Now gut a piece of pegboard or other sheet goods with a perforated face to the same size as the back and glue and screw it in. If you did rabbit, lay a bead of caulk or thick glue in to seal the face otherwise if no rabbit just glue it securly to the frame and secure with flat head screws. This is your vacuum box. You now need to make a frame to hold the plastic. The key element here is that you have to be able to secure or trap the plastic around the edges to prevent it from being pulled in when the plastic is pulled over the mold. You can make a woof frame, the same dimension as the vacuum box and secure the plastic to it with spring paper clips or make a double frame and trap the plastic between two halves when you fasten them together. In either event what you need to end up with is a wood frame plastic holder that fits exactly over the vacuum box and holds the plastic securely. You should also at this time line the mating surfaces of both the box and the frame with a thin weather seal or gasket material to get a more or less airtight seal of the frame to the box. Lastly get a piece of window screen or similar open weave material to sit between the perforated top of the vacuum box and the master or mold you are to use. This will ensure that you get even spread of the airflow and draw around the master. To make a molded piece, make your master or part to be used to vacuum form around. It should have an additional layer of material on the bottom face to space it off the vacuum box. Provise a peg conveinently placed on the bottom to fit into one of the holes in the face of the vacuum box to keep the master from moving around. Place the master on the box, and secure a sheet of plastic into the frame. Now heat the plastic and frame in an oven or toaster oven, or try some sort of radient heater like an IR heat lamp. Heat the plastic till it softens and starts to sag easily. When the plastis is hot, turn on the shop-vac or vacuum cleaner. Now With oven mits or some sort of protection for the hands, place the frame over the box and watch your vacuum formed piece appear! Turn off vacuum and remove when the plastic is cool enough to retain it's shape. As an improvement, you can add 2-4 guide pins to the top edge of the box with corresponding holes in the frame to act as positioning/locator pins Total time (presuming you have a few simple woodworking tool)s, an hour or so to build the box, cost, a few dollars worth of wood and plastic pipe, presuming you don't have suitable materials lying about. Regards Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Rick Nelson" Subject Re Renwal Polaris subs In addition to Rick's observations, the other problem (well, one of the other problems) with the Renwal kits is the sail mounted planes. The Polaris boats did not have stationary "stand-offs" from the sail for the sail planes; the entire sail plane was movable. Also, when I correct the rudders, I usually scratchbuild the upper rudder, as it was noticeably taller than the lower rudder. Ken Hart wrote a great article a while back in the SubCommittee Report about correcting the exterior of the Renwall SSBN kits. Tom makes a good point which I had forgotten about. I built up my Renwall about 9 years ago and also fixed the sailplane issue too. I don't have any accurate photos of the complete stern of a 608 boat so I cannot confirm or deny the issue regarding the upper rudder being larger than the lower rudder. However, based on photos of the Sam Houston SSBN609 that I have, the top of the upper rudder looks like it should be approx 1/3 of the sail height above the missile deck which in the Renwal kit it looks to be more like 1/4 or short. Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Gearbox Toys preassembled and prepainted 1/700 scale ships I know this sounds strange coming from me, but while I was Christmas shopping at Wal-Mart's toy department for all of the grand-rug-rats in our house, I came across Gearbox Toys preassembled and prepainted 1/700 scale ships. While at first intrigued at the novel idea of having such ships for sale to the younger modelers and kids out there, the idea became even more so as I noticed that these were fairly accurately done representations of the full-hulled originals. Taking the fact that in order to do a fair job on ANY 1/700 scale warship one has to spend many hours and loads of money getting all of the material together in order to just do one of these vessels. BUT, if all you need is a quick-fix model for say a diorama or a fleet of these class of vessels, these are an indeed inexpensive way to do it. Marketed by this company under their "Military Classics" line of 1/700 scale die-cast warships, they are advertized as having accurate detail (within reason that is true if you would build ANY 1/700 scale ship "out-of-the-box".), and full hull finished model comes with its own display stand. Their product line so far is as follows No. 09001 - USS Arizona, Battleship (in her sort-of Pearl scheme). No. 09002 - USS New Jersey, Battleship (in her post WW-II scheme when she had a helo aft deck). No. 09003 - USS Hornet, Aircraft Carrier (in her not-so accurate Doolittle raid scheme, but with sixteen B-25s). No. 09006 - USS Indianapolis, Cruiser (in her 1945 scheme). No. 09007 - USS Missouri, Battleship (in her 1945 scheme). No. 09008 - USS Intrepid, Aircraft Carrier (in her 1945 scheme). Their entire 1/700 scale line can be seen at http//www.gearboxtoys.com/GBbattleships.html . You can find distributors for their products on this page as well as their contact information of info@gearboxtoys.com . I had a chance to view their Indianapolis, Missouri, and Intrepid at some length and they look really good up close. With different details such as aircraft and AAA weapons and photoetched details too, these would be real show stoppers except in any real contest. But they are really good for a quick way to expand your collection of ships in these classes. This company's "Mini Vessel" line are just toys, as is their line of "Aircraft", which is their die-cast C-47 in a RAF D-Day (marked US Marine), captured in Luftwaffe markings, US Army at D-Day and an Arctic marked USN bird. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject Re MV "Christmas Seal" Although I have been unable to bring up three of the four websites Harold Stockton included, the photo in the fourth one looks a great deal like the WW I subchasers, especially the wheel house and cowl ventilators etc. About 7 or 8 of these boats were on the US Navy's active list at the beginning of WW II, and "Christmas Seal" could have well been one of them. One thing that doesn't look quite right though is the higher freeboard amidships and aft. That makes the hull look more like the very-near-sister chasers of WW II. The wooden hulls were retained in WW II, as was the 110 Ft. length, but the beam was about 4 feet (more or less) greater. I may be able to comment further if I can see the other three websites (GOD and AOL willing). Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "David N. Lombard" Subject Re Modeler's Vacuform Google for the book "The Secrets of Building a Plastic Vacuum Forming Machine" by Vincent R. Gingery. It's also available from Lindsay Publications, Inc. See Lindsay also does a lot of reprints of very old books on various engineering subjects. Ask for a catalog... I *really* like these old books, e.g., "Model Engineering, A Guide to Model Workshop Practice" David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA http//www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth?imgsize=320&opt=-z&lat=33.8&ns=North&lon=118.08&ew=West&alt=7&img=learth.evif ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume