Subject: SMML Vol 3089 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 00:24:59 +1100 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 Resin 1/700 Jaureguiberry kit 2 Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy 3 Re RFA Ships/County Class Cruisers 4 Kit Quality 5 Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy 6 lct load-outs... 7 More Esquimalt Naval Museum Mystery Ship Photos 8 Re Sir Galahad 9 Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy 10 Landing Craft ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Jim Subject Resin 1/700 Jaureguiberry kit Hello all fellow modelmakers! Saw this link posted on the Message board of Steel navy.. There appear to be a resin kit in 1/700 of the Jaureguiberry either available or in the offing Here is the link http//www.h3.dion.ne.jp/~yumematu/jaureguiberry.htm Alas.. the webpage is entirely in Japanes--I am certain that some of our SMML members can read the text and put me and other french Pre-dreadnought fans out of our unknowing misery!! I must credit Mr Chris Cowder for actually finding the web-page! >> At the bottom of that website are 2 links to other photos of the kit, including the master pattern and the cast resin bits. << I really NEED to know what it says on those pages.... My Mastercard is burning a hole in my pocket Best wishes to all... JIM BAUMANN ......mildly excited I suppose...LOL!! http//www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/jim-baumann/jb-index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Paul R. Mitchell" Subject Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy Hi Kerry, Try contacting the US Army Transportation Museum ( http//www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/museum.html ) at Ft. Eustis, VA USA. They may be able to provide you with the information you're seeking. They very helpful to me a few years back. The British or Canadian armed forces have a similar organization. If the British and Canadian landing forces were carried by US Army LCTs, then the US Army Transportation Museum may have the information you want. Cheers, Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Gary Mansfield" Subject Re RFA Ships/County Class Cruisers RFA Sir Galahad plans. Check on the RN/RFA or Navy News web sites for info? Looking at the photos in "Man of War 1 County class cruisers" I agree with the last post on the colours, ships also look spotless so no weathering please... Thank you for the replies reference USN Guided Missile Cruisers, you are all very helpful! I have some good references now. Kind regards Gary Mansfield ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Danny Blackburn" Subject Kit Quality Much has been said about this subject, but I wish to opine on the topic from a slightly different angle. When it comes to kit quality, there are four key factors to be considered--I have listed these in MY order of importance, but they should all belong in any kit modeler's list 1) Dimensional accuracy 2) Manufacturing and materials 3) Historical accuracy 4) Detail content Excellence in a model kit requires high standards from all four categories. I believe it's fair to say that NO model kit is perfect, and will require some degree---even if only minor--of correcting or modifying. Several posts to this site have put forth the notion that "good" is opposed to "accurate", as if somehow these two elements were at odds. Nothing, in my opinion, could be further from the truth! First of all, dimensional accuracy is an absolute MUST for any good kit. There is no such thing as a "good, inaccurate" kit. The whole raison d'etre for a replica model, is to accurately reflect its subject. Otherwise, it isn't really a "model". There is only the slightest tolerance available for error, in this regard. Manufacturing and materials are next, as poor materials or bad manufacturing are critical to quality. The most accurate model possible is easily ruined by casting errors, warpage, the wrong choice of materials, etc. While a skilled modeler may be able to overcome certain problems in this respect, a good model kit should not compromise on material quality or manufacturing standards. Historical accuracy is a two-pronged factor First, it is equal to dimensional accuracy, to the extent that it affects dimensional accuracy. A subject being modelled to reflect its existence during a certain time-frame or historical period, can affect dimensional criteria, and vice-versa. It would be inappropriate, for instance, to model Scharnhorst as originally built with a straight-stem bow, but otherwise fitted and detailed as of Operation Cerberus (Channel Dash). This is rather obvious, but it illustrates my point. Second, it is a matter of correctability during the build process, and ties-in with the materials and manufacturing factor (in order to facilitate the necessary corrections, if needed). The latter aspect may or may not allow historical correction, depending on the circumstances. Detail content, the last of the four factors, is less important only because it can be the least-difficult to "fix". A model can be near-perfect in dimensional accuracy, but lacking in detail, and still be a "good" model. I'm talking about doors, hatches, scuttles, mushroom vents, stanchions, fixtures, and so on. Photoetch exists, in part, for this very reason. However, good model kits have existed for decades without PE, and this proves my point. I'd rather have a poorly-detailed kit with excellent dimensional accuracy, than the other way around. It's also a more flexible issue, especially as pertains to the scale of the model and its actual size. A 11200 model ship simply can't be detailed to the degree a 1350 can, but the smaller model can be excellent in all other respects, making it a good model to buy. You may or may not agree with what I've detailed above, but these are the criteria---except for that of a kit's price---that entirely make up my decision on judging a kit. I am mostly a scratch-build kinda guy anyway, skilled enough to build an entire ship model from the keel up from raw materials, and I have done so a number of times with subjects not available on the kit market. This can certainly affect my overall views, and I respect that not all modellers are alike. Perhaps others are more dependent on one factor over another, at least of those I've included here, and there may be factors I just don't consider, because of my confidence as a scratchbuilder. But I did try to be as reasoned and explanatory as I could, and that is what I hope I have accomplished. One final point Someone commented that a judge may look past accuracy and grant an award to a model, based on other criteria. I can only say that, if I were placing one of my own builds in front of a judge, that person ought to damn well have better qualifications than me, to make any decision on MY model! I don't model for competition, I model for ME--the toughest judge of all, and I hope each of you reading this feel exactly the same as I do. After all, it's all for the love of the hobby that I do what I do! Thanks for reading! Finally, there's the kitmaker's manufacturing and materials to be considered ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Sell4853@aol.com Subject Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy Suggest you look at http//www.combinedops.com/LST(2)427.htm and for more detail can be found within text at http//www.combinedops.com/My_World_War.htm#Normandy here is another link worth looking at re numerous LST histories http//www.historycentral.com/Navy/patrol/19.html Sorry if this is a flood of info but these may also help http//www.channel4.com/history/timeteam/2004_dday.pdf http//www.army.mil/cmh-pg/reference/normandy/TS/index.htm http//www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Admin/ETO-AdmLog-6/ETO-AdmLog-6-7.html http//p.webring.com/hub?ring=landingshiptank Hope this helps Norman Tenterden (UK) and NO I am not £50m richer (not yet!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Tim Perry" Subject lct load-outs... I've been looking into this subject for exactly the same reason, (you can see one of my older LCT models at http//www.kipperboxes.co.uk/html/lct_mk_4.html) but it is a frought subject! There were a lot of trials done to check that certain combinations of vehicles would actually go on board, and could then be driven off again (Crabs would usually wipe all the fire buckets off an LCT, for example!)and and as a result of handling problems, large items such as AVRE with the SGB Assault Bridges were usually loaded aft, just in front of the LCT bridge. The side area of the raised bridge made steering the LCT very difficult in side winds. But as to the EXACT load-outs on particular LCTS, landing on particular beaches, this is more difficult to be certain. There are lots and lots of photos available showing loaded LCTS, so plenty of 'typical' research material to use. The vehicles usually had details of their intended vessels chalked on their hull sides, although I would point out the LCT number often seen is a loading number, NOT the pennant number of the actual vessel. You often see the loading number on a seperate, and clearly temporary, board hung on the bridge of the LCT; sometimes over the bow doors of LSTs as well. This was to that a loading plan could be moved to a different LCT if the first became unservicable. So with a bit of cross-referencing it is possible to work out at least a reasonable load-out. 79th Division load-outs were a mixture of Sherman Crabs, Churchill AVRE vehicles and D7 Armoured Dozers, but the mix varied, particularly the types of AVREs, depending on the expected conditions and fortifications to be tackled. The AVRE bobbins were to be used where the dreaded 'Blue Clay' was to be found, the AVRE anti-mine plough was used on the sandier beaches. Usually the Crabs were loaded forward, so they could immediately start ripping up the wire and sweeping the mine fields, while the AVREs followed up, closing on the pill-boxes and sea walls so the crews could use their 'Flying Dustbin' mortar. Read the books however, and you will soon realise how the best laid plans of mice and men... They didn't use any of the framed explosive devices, instead relying on Engineers leaving their tanks to place charges by hand. Ulp.... Also, don't put any Crocodile flame throwing tanks on any D-Day vessels; they didn't go into service until July. On vessels landing more standard gun tanks, a BARV (Sherman Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle) was sometimes loaded aft, you can identify these from their high boat hull-shaped 'turret' (fixed, of course!). Vessels with infantry units had a mix of vehicles, Universal Carriers, Half-Tracks, anti-aircraft guns, towed anti-tank guns, armoured dozers, and as the landings progressed more trucks with ammo, fuel, ammo, water, oil, food, ammo SP guns, EVERYTHING else!! I can recommend the Battle Zone Normandy book series which covers all of these landings and subsequent battles in Normandy (www.suttonpublishing.co.uk ), Battleground Europe series from Pen and Sword Books Ltd, D-Day Ships by Yves Buffetaut. The War of the Landing Craft by Paul Lund and Harry Ludlam is good too, lots of anecdotal stuff, such as LCT 354, of the 11th LCT Flotilla, carried 5 Sherman DD tanks of the Fort Garry Horse Regiment, to land them on the beach as the sea was too rough to launch them as designed. On the way back, an RAF bomber crashed into the see only a few hundred yards from them, and they then rescued the crew of a drifting landing barge! Not much help, as LCT 354 was an LCT 3, but you get the idea! The little booklet Warships of the World Part Eight Landing Craft is very useful too, as it gives all the pennant numbers, so you can identify the type of craft even if it isn't mentioned in the stories. I got my copy on eBay for a a couple of £s. Researching the armoured vehicles and the various units will often turn up useful pictures. A picture of a tank crew can be very handy if it shows something else in the background, for example! My LCT files are stored away just now, but if I get some time this weekend I'll dig them out and see if I can turn up something more specific. Tim Perry wunwinglow www.kipperboxes.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From Paul Subject More Esquimalt Naval Museum Mystery Ship Photos Shane, Lorna et al The CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military museum has updated its Mystery Ship Photo pages on its website. This grouping has photos of an unidentified RN Light cruiser (dated 1918 but we have suspicions of that), the USS Monitor, an escort carrier, and a number of shots of RN Queen Elizabeth class battleships. Some of the older unidentified ship photos are still posted as we have had no responses as yet. If you think you can help check out our ship photo project site at http//www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/id_project/id_project_1.html When making a comment please refer to the VR number of the photo. The exception to this is the photo of the County class cruiser which had been submitted by the adjoining graving dock. It has a file number with "EGDock" in the title. We'll be posting a number of their photos too, as the graving dock's administration staff would like some of their archived ship photos to be identified. Paul O'Reilly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Paul R. Mitchell" Subject Re Sir Galahad >> Detailed general arrangement plans of RFA (not HMS) "Sir Lancelot", sister ship of RFA "Sir Galahad" are on pages 136 and 137 of H.T.Lenton's "Warships of the British & Commonwealth Navies"published in 1966 by Ian Allan Ltd. While very detailed, they are at a small scale and would have to redrawn to suit 1/96 or 1/48. I am not sure that they would enlarge satisfactorily through the photocopying process. Might be worth trying though. << Taubman Plans / Loyalhanna Dockyard ( http//www.taubmansonline.com/ ) offers a 3-sheet set of plans at 1192 scale. for HMT Sir Galahad and Sir Kay. Plan No. L/S/26 ABC. Cheers, Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Daniel Taylor" Subject Re Landing Craft Loads at Normandy Hi Kerry I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the kit as I built the master. I'm sure its just a typo but for the rest of the readership the model is an LCT4. However, if you are interested in landing craft, please see the advert at the bottom of the newsletter. Back to your question. This is a tough one to research and I think you will be hard-pressed to come up with definative answers. There were specified loads but photographic evidence suggests that actual loads exceeded recommendations and sometimes incorporated other formations altogether. The trickiest information is the loading number. I have been unable to find any accurate list which associates the craft's pennant number with the loading number (carried on a board or boards, usually hung on the bridge). The loading number was chalked on the vehicles designated for that craft in order that the loading officer could make sure the right vehicles embarked on the right craft. Each lift for the landing craft would be given a new number. By and large though the British beaches are not as well documented as the US beaches. As an example of a British beach, my own research has centred around Sword beach, particularly the 41st Flotilla (hence two decal options with the kit for this flotilla). They too were designated to carry an independent armoured brigade but with wading Shermans. Fortunately the FPU photographer, Sgt Jimmy Mapham was carried to Normandy on LCT and that has given a far better idea of the loads for LCTs 610 and 789. 610 carried the loading number 212. Its load comprised 4 Shermans from the RHQ and a troop from C Squadron of 13th/18th Hussars.,plus a couple of amphib jeeps, and a Sherman ARV plus porpoises attached to some of hte tanks. 789 (loading number 213) carried infantry of the 1st South Lancs in carriers plus vehicles from the beach group - a Sherman Barv and two D7 doxers, a large camouflaged trailer and an M10 Wolverine (ie not an Achilles). I have been in contact with the son of one of the skippers from this flotilla, Peter Gurnsey, 980. His diary shows the load as follows June 5th 1944. Sailing from Portsmouth for Ouistreham. Hayling Island in background. Approx. load 2 Shermans 1 3 ton and trailer 3 7lb A.T. (sic - actually a 6-pdr) & Bren gun carriers 1 Bulldozer 1 Angle Dozer 1 D8 beach recovery vehicle 2 Jeeps 2 Officers & 92 personnel" As to Juno, I am long overdue a visit the Public Records Office (the British National Archive). I would be happy to look through the records for information about Juno - in the hope that their record keeping is a little more detailed than those for Sword. I'll pass on whatever I find, hopefully within the next fortnight. You may also want to approach the Canadian National Archive. I know they have an extensive collection of photographs pertaining to D-Day, some in colour and they may shed similar insight to those of Jimmy Mapham. If you are able then I'd be interested in hearing what you find. Hope that's helpful and look forward to your comment, Dan Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "Daniel Taylor" Subject Landing Craft Hi All Any modellers interested in Landing Craft or larger scale museum quality models will be interested to hear about the these models available and coming on stream. These are precision resin model kits with full etched brass accessories and a set of decals for multiple vessels. I build masters for two manufacturers, Accurate Armour and Milicast, both of whom are based in Scotland. First, Accurate Armour - Currently Available LCT 4, The most numerous British major Landing Craft of WWII used in all major European landing to land British, Canadian and US troops. Decal options cover all of the D-Day beaches. Prices Export £148.94, £175 in the EC LCT5 (the US design). It is a smaller craft than the 4 and has decal options for British, Canadian and US models. They were used in landings in Normandy, South of France and through the Pacific. Prices Export £127.65, £149.99 in the EC Upcoming releases In the next couple of months Accurate Armour will be bringing out LCF (4), based on the LCT4 with a replacement deck. It is armed with four 2-pdr 'pom-poms and eight 2cm Oerlikons. Keep an eye on the website for further information. LCT(A)5, an adaptation of the LCT5 for the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group. A platform for the Centaur tanks is included and I believe there are plans to include vehicles. Accurate Armour can be contacted at www.accurate-armour.com Look under the Links - 'Products', 'Accurate Armour Products', Helicopters and Naval', Now from Milicast. The smaller craft are all presision resin kits. LCM3 Landing Craft Mechanical Mk. III (LCM(3)) with Keel, etc., £29.95 LCM3W Landing Craft Mechanical Mk. III (LCM(3)) - Waterline Version £24.95 LCM6W Landing Craft Mechanical Mk. VI (LCM(6)) - Waterline Version £28.95 LCPLUS LCP(L) Landing Craft Personnel (Large) with Keel, etc., £17.95 LCPLUSW LCP(L) Landing Craft Personnel (Large) - Waterline Version £15.95 LCPR LCP(R) Landing Craft Personnel (Ramped) with Keel, etc., £17.95 LCPRW LCP(R) Landing Craft Personnel (Ramped) - Waterline Version £15.95 LCVP LCVP Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel with Keel, etc., £15.95 LCVPW LCVP Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel - Waterline Version £14.95 Additionally, Milicast are in the process of releasing the LCI(L). This is a full, museum quality resin kit with etched brass detail and decals for a number of vessels. It is available in two version - a US version with taller bridge and other specific details, and a British/Canadian version with shorter bridge. These were used from the invasion of Sicily onwards in Europe and hte Pacific. The retail price is not set yet but looks to be around the £175 level. Milicast can be found at www.milicast.com Look under the 'British Index', 'Landing Craft' links. Other kits underway for later release LCT2, LCT3, LCI(S). Any feedback on what you think of the kits, constructive criticism, and requests for the future are welcome to me on d-taylor@dircon.co.uk Dan Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume