Subject: SMML Vol 3098 Date: 14 Mar 2006 18:57:04 -0000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: French BB plans 2: Re: New Plans Site - vendor 3: Re: USN S-Class Sub Colors - Philippines - December 8, 1941 ??? 4: JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS 5: Looking for info on Mexican Gunboat built in the US 6: Re: USN S-Class Sub Colors - Philippines - December 8, 1941 ??? 7: Re: New Plans Site - vendor 8: Re: French BB plans 9: Re: JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS 10: German WWII Surface Ships 11: Re: JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Ned Barnett Subject Re: French BB plans Gone - do you have a valid link for this? > Date Sun, 12 Mar 2006 195308 -0800 > From >Subject Bouvet French Battleship Plans (#6043221112) > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >An interesting pre-dreadnought. Plans at 1100. > >View this Item on eBay at >http//cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item==`43221112&ssPageName==­MEBEFUS1 Ned Barnett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From Ned Barnett Subject Re: New Plans Site - vendor Al - this is great news - I've got the site bookmarked. Please let us know when it's live. Two questions 1. Does this include the PTs that Bulkley used in the PI? 2. Do you consider the S-Boat subs used in the PI as "coastal forces?" > Date Mon, 13 Mar 2006 042345 -0000 > From "Al Ross" >Subject New Plans Site - vendor > >I've decided to bring back my Coastal Forces plans and have developed a >website on which to sell them. It should be up in a couple days and >can be found at www.coastalforcesplans.com. > >Al Ross Ned Barnett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re: USN S-Class Sub Colors - Philippines - December 8, 1941 ??? In answer to Ned Barnett's questions about what color schemes would apply to submarines during the immediate post-Pearl Harbor time period in the Philippines, it would have been MEASURE 9, all black. Below is the first part of a full discussion on this and other measure experiments for submarines. I started to weigh in on this discussion because I have the material in the 1976 publication UNITED STATES NAVY CAMOUFLAGE OF THE WW2 ERA by The Floating Drydock, but Tim's quotations were pretty much the same as what I had, but with needing a little more explanation. In September 1937, the USN Bureau of Construction and Repair (C&R) gathered all of the various and scattered material that it had on camouflage from the WW-I era and after tests into a handbook entitled "C&R-4". Tests at sea in 1935 led to the adoption of Standards Navy Gray (light gray) as the best color for low visibility in overcast or foggy weather. From these experiments, a number of conclusions were drawn. Low visibility to aerial observation was accomplished in all types of weather if all horizontal (deck) surfaces were painted a very dark gray, or nearly black. Vertical surfaces would be considerably darker than Standard Navy Gray. Low visibility to surface observation was accomplished in clear weather if the vertical surfaces would be considerably darker than Standard Navy Gray, while in hazy or foggy conditions the standard color was found to be adequate. The San Diego tests for Dazzle Camouflage was carried out and various patterns were arrived at on modes only, though none were tested on ships at sea. Concerning the colors of the paints for the camouflage system, these are the general conclusions. All paints were to be matt, or dull and lusterless. Three Shades of Gray (a, b and c) were to be used in ship camouflage. Shade (a) was to be the then (1937) Standard Navy Gray (light gray), which matched approximately the sky background near the horizon in hazy weather. Shade (b) is Ocean Gray (medium gray) and is approximately the color of the breezy sea within five (5) degrees of the horizon in bright weather. Shade (c) is Dark Gray and is approximately the color of the breezy sea as viewed by an aviator looking down at angles less than sixty (60) degrees to the vertical. Though no actual paint chips of these colors existed when the Floating Drydock book was published, they did not that the 1937 handbook mentioned above did give their respective PB numbers, and which allows anyone to refer to the MUNSELL BOOK OF COLOR to readily discover the exact percentage of purble-blue (PB) to gray (chroma). While the pre-war paints were often referred to as ". . . gray only. . . ," the PB numbers contradict this. All three of these paints had a purple-blue hue. As a matter of fact, the 1937 ocean gray (b) has the same value and chroma as the September 1941 ocean gray (5-0). The only discernible difference is that the later paint is significantly less reflective. A case in point between Specular (gloss) and non-Specular (matt) paints of the aircraft of the USN Neutrality Patrols and when they were "toned" down considerably by being overpainted in the non-Specular (matt) paints of September 1941. The next change in paint specifications came in January 1941 with the addendum to C&R-4, 1937, and notes said that the earlier specification could be kept for reference purposes. This document is then referred to as SHIPS-2. In SHIPS-2 there is a first use of the term MEASURE, and it was explained that SYSTEM as referred to in C&R-4 was synonymous with the term MEASURE, and was used in all subsequent revisions and supplements. There is a confusing set of paragraphs under the subtitle of Camouflage paint. The three shades of gray were referred to as dark gray (5-D), ocean gray (5-O) and light gray (5-L), and that light gray (5-L) was the same as Standard Navy gray 1928-40. The apparent contradiction comes at the end of the last paragraph when it states "The old Standard Navy gray has a gloss value of 44 which weathers down to about 28 after thirty days exposure. A marked reduction in gloss has been obtained in the new formulas . . ." A word of note should be made here as a similar situation existed in the various Dupont aeronautical paints used by the USN Bureau of Aircraft (BoA) and the USAAF. There was a switch during the 1920's, 30's and 40's as paint finishes were switching from a nitro-cellulose or resin varnish to a lacquer or oil based paint system, with the later being far cheaper to maintain and apply as it could be done with spray apparatus. Also, the nitro-cellulose resin varnishes "checked" or "crazed" very rapidly when under very strong weather elements of bright sunlight and salty air, requiring repeated and constant retouching in order to keep it from "chalking", "hazing over" or "dulling" out significantly toward a grayish color. Thus, this is what is meant by the phrase "The old Standard Navy gray has a gloss value of 44 which weathers down to about 28 after thirty days exposure. A marked reduction in gloss has been obtained in the new formulas . . ." These new lacquer or oil based formula paints were of considerably less gloss. In the aeronautical terms, these would be called in the USN as non-specular (flat or matt finish) of in the USAAF as dull of flat finishes. If lacquer paints are simply brushed on, irrespective of their gloss value, they take on a semi to full matt finish depending on the thinness (amount of thinning agent present) of the initial mixed paint batch. A good example of this can be seen of the USS Sapelo (AO-22) that is being given a new coat of Measure 1 Dark Gray (5-D) at Norfolk Navy Yard in March 1941. A photo of this can be found of page three (3) of the 1976 CAMOUFLAGE book. Because of the very bright light conditions present from the angle that the photo is taken, the original Standard Navy Gray (a) appears a almost white, while the Dark Gray (5-D) appears as a very dark gray. Because this shot was taken as the Sapelo was in drydock, her black antifouling bottom appears as a very good comparison for the contrast between the Standard Navy Gray (a), the Dark Gray (5-D) and the pure white draft numbers up the black antifouling paint on the hull's side. In the January 1941 addendum to C&R-4, 1937, handbook, they explain for the first time what would become known as the MEASURE 9, Black System for Submarines. In this section it was instructed to paint the entire submarine black (above the waterline). This painting was to be carried over all parts which are visible from the air, including the numbers, capstans, running light boards and bridge rails. The underbody (hull bottom below the waterline) shall be painted with current issues of bottom antifouling paints, with no boot-topping. Black was chosen for submarines after experiments in Key West and the Canal Zone. It was the color of lowest visibility when submerged submarines were observed by aircraft. A very dark blue ("Pearl Harbor Blue") was found to be even less visible than black, in Hawaiian waters. However, the dark blue deteriorated and turned milky in a few weeks, where as the black paint remained serviceable for several months. Thus, black was chosen over the less visible dark blue. It was also noted that "improved formulas of Pearl Harbor blue are being tested extensively in the Fleet at present." These new formulas carried large amounts of Ultramarine blue (MUNSELL, PB 29). It should be brought up at this time the questions then being raised over the MEASURE 1 Dark Gray System of (5-D), as this has some bearings on the "improved formulas of Pearl Harbor blue are being tested extensively in the Fleet at present." It was remarked that a pure intense blue color possesses such as Phthalocyanine Blue has some desirable low visibility features, perhaps to a greater extent than those of Dark Gray (5-D). However, attempts to prepare a stable Ultramarine blue (PB 29) paint which does not fade had not been successful. Therefore, tests of the color on a ship had not been made. One of the reasons that Ultramarine blue paints tend to fade so fast is because they tend to lean toward the purple side of blue rather than a pure blue. And this shift toward red is the reason that fading happens so fast as all red paints oxidize the fastest. Also, this color has the effect as an optical whitener on fabric, paper, plastics, rubber and in paints, and for its ability to absorb yellow wavelengths. Almost a natural "stealth" ability. For example, if you want a "pure" vibrant purple, mix it from a red and blue that both share or "lean toward" purple-permanent alizarin or thalo crimson and french ultramarine or ultramarine (permanent blue). If you want a less pure, less intense purple, use the orange-leaning red (bright red or vermilion hue) and the ultramarine blue. If you want a very grayed purple (hardly purple at all!) use the bright red or vermilion hue with the Windsor blue or thalo blue. This same theory applies to all your other hues. The purest, most intense mixtures come from combining two primary colors that lean toward (are "biased" toward) the same secondary color. http//www.fountainstudio.com/watercolor%20tips/tip-mixing_colors.html In the paints and coatings industry Ultramarine Blue has traditionally been used mostly to tint white paints in order to provide a blue undertone highly appreciated by paint makers. The benefits are clear absorbance of yellow wavelengths, low tinting strength, the desired undertone and sufficient dispensability. But Ultramarine Blue has hardly been used to make truly blue paints so far. Why is this? Phthalocyanine Blue pigments have been known since the late 30's and became the industry standard to manufacture blue paints due to its good performance and availability. When Ultramarine Blue entered the industrial market with more strength in the late 80's in the Plastics industry, there were already plenty of barriers to use Ultramarine Blue pigments in the paints and coatings industry. On one hand there were strong technical barriers. The perception of industry technicians was that the pigment's performance was not adequate for some technical requirements of the manufacturing of paints lack of tinting strength, low light and weather resistance, limited dispensability, low opacity, even sulfur smell. On the other hand, Phthalocyanine Blue was already a well established and known pigment in this industry. Technicians were used to it and had adapted all formulations to that standard pigment. Therefore, at that time there were no good reasons to consider Ultramarine Blue as a potential pigment to add to paint producers' blue pigments portfolio. The reason is that Ultramarine Blue is located in a blue color space that no other pigment or blend of pigments can occupy (See Chart 1). And, as said before, this pigment has hardly been used to make blue paints so far. Being the first is many times the key to success. The reddish undertone Ultramarine Blue makes things painted in blue look warmer, brighter and deeper, both in full -intense- and reduced pastel- shades. In comparison to the greenish undertone that Phthalocyanine Blue provides, which shows a cooler, duller blue color, even when they are blended with organic Violet pigments. http//www.asiapacificcoatingsjournal.com/shownews.asp?secid=12&nav=1&newstype=&key=&page=&newsid=10823 In part -02 I will continue the discussion of the so-called "Pearl Harbor Blue." Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Gary Mansfield" Subject JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS Hi, The SMML Think Tank, OK, what are the books to get on Japanese Aircraft Carriers? I need to see some clear photos, plans etc. Over to you. Kind regards Gary Mansfield ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Ed Bertschy" Subject Looking for info on Mexican Gunboat built in the US How would I go about finding images or drawings of a Mexican gunboat built by Lewis Nixon in the Crescent Shipyards of Elizabeth New Jersey in 1902-4. The ship was called the Tampico, and displaced 600 tons. It had a sister ship called the Veracruz. It had two 4" guns and six rapid firing 57mm guns. Any help greatly appreciated. Ed Bertschy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "John Snyder" Subject Re: USN S-Class Sub Colors - Philippines - December 8, 1941 ??? Nice post from Harold. I want to add a couple of caveats, however "Though no actual paint chips of these colors existed when the Floating Drydock book was published, they did note that the 1937 handbook mentioned above did give their respective PB numbers, and which allows anyone to refer to the MUNSELL BOOK OF COLOR to readily discover the exact percentage of purple-blue (PB) to gray (chroma." That is only true if you refer to the 1929 Munsell Book of Color, and NOT to the present Munsell Book of Color. "A good example of this can be seen of the USS Sapelo (AO-22) that is being given a new coat of Measure 1 Dark Gray (5-D) at Norfolk Navy Yard in March 1941. A photo of this can be found of page three (3) of the 1976 CAMOUFLAGE book. Because of the very bright light conditions present from the angle that the photo is taken, the original Standard Navy Gray (a) appears almost white, while the Dark Gray (5-D) appears as a very dark gray." The #5 Standard Navy Gray appears almost white chiefly because the original photo was made on orthochromatic film, which is blue-sensitive and renders anything blue as near-white in the final print. The Munsell notation for #5 Standard Navy Gray was 10B 6.5/1.5, meaning it was a blue (of low chroma), and thus rendered nearly white by the ortho film. It is also worth noting that, despite what the Floating Drydock camo book may say, #5 Standard Navy Gray and the 1941 version of 5-L Light Gray were NOT the same color 5-L Light Gray had a Munsell notation of 10B 7/1.5. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http//WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From alross2@aol.com Subject Re: New Plans Site - vendor In a message dated 3/13/2006 103403 AM Eastern Standard Time, smmlonline@yahoogroups.com writes BUT can you tell me what was in Volume 1 . I have forgot . Vol 1 covered the FAIRMILEs and the 110' SC (SC 497 series). Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Paul Giltz" Subject Re: French BB plans Ned, I tried sending you the link directly from the Ebay page.If it doesnt work try a basic search within Ebay for "bouvet". Or search for seller " tlcsjc1988 ". There are 5 days left on this item. Paul Giltz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "Hugh Hung" Subject Re: JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS Gary, I recommend the book, JIN Warship Album Aircraft Carrier $ Sea Plane Tender. You can find more information with the link below. http//www.hlj.com/product/DIA95056 Hugh ----- Original Message ----- From Gary Mansfield Subject [SMML] JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS Hi, The SMML Think Tank, OK, what are the books to get on Japanese Aircraft Carriers? I need to see some clear photos, plans etc. Over to you. Kind regards Gary Mansfield ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From Cathdanjon@aol.com Subject German WWII Surface Ships I know my question will sound silly to a lot of you. As I have been doing a study of the German WWI ships I realized I knew next to nothing of their WWII surface ships other than the Bismarck and so forth. Can anyone point me to any books or web sites? Thank You So Much, Mike aka djonezboyz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From dan@lcpremiums.com Subject Re: JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS THat's a very good choice; it has excellent full page photos. Just released by the new Kure Maritime Museum. However, in most cases, it only carries 1-2 shots of each ship and no plans. There are a lot of books out there, almost all in Japanese. Check HLJ for the Kojinsha Mechanisms of IJN CVs as well. I'm traveling and cannot access my list. The Miyukikai plan sets are also very good. He has a direct link that I cannot remember but they are also available in the US from Pacific Front Hobbies. HTH, Dan My apologies to anyone getting auto responses from my office PC - don't know why that's happening. Quoting Hugh Hung > Gary, > > I recommend the book, JIN Warship Album Aircraft Carrier $ Sea Plane Tender. > > You can find more information with the link below. > > http//www.hlj.com/product/DIA95056 > > Hugh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume