Subject: SMML Vol 3111 Date: 3 Apr 2006 15:35:38 -0000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Experience with an Internet book seller 2: Invincible (1914) color 3: Re: Invincible (1914) color 4: Re: Experience with an Internet book seller 5: Re: Experience with an Internet book seller 6: Re: Experience with an Internet book seller ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Maarten Schönfeld Subject Experience with an Internet book seller Dear SMMLlies, I want to express with some restraint that I have had a rather unpleasant experience with an Internet book seller. This was about a second-hand book which was found on the ABE-booksite, www.abebooks.com. This is an intermediate webshop for several private book stores. The book in case was "Transactions of the Institution of Naval Architects, 1926 " Once I had made my buy it was revealed to me that the book was sold by Military Books, of Richard P.W. Williams in the United States. In the course of this transaction several things appeared to go wrong 1) The book was advertised as describing one specific subject (i.e. the launching arrangements of HMS Nelson and Rodney, with many fold-out drawings). When I finally received the book, only one chapter of it (13 pages out of over 300) was devoted to this subject and only one sketchy drawing related to this launching. The rest of the book was full with other articles on naval boiler efficiency, harbour layouts etcetera, you name it. No word about these other subjects had been in the ad. 2) Immediately after the buy Mr. Williams increased the shipping fee from $10.00 to $30.00, with an extra $3 for insurance. He told me that claiming this amount was justified because the book was large, and he referred to the 'small printon the ABE site. I grudgingly accepted this 200 % increase in shipping cost. After I received it, the book appeared to be only marginally over the limit weight of 2.2 lbs (1kg) for the normal shipping rate. 3) When I approved Mr. Williams to withdraw $ 83 from my credit card, I was very surprised that I found $ 103.00 was withdrawn instead. I protested immediately, Mr. Williams apologised and told me he would correct the withdrawal but I am still awaiting the final result of the withdrawal. 4) After arrival of the book, it was immediately clear that the contents were very disappointing referring to the ad. After another complaint to mr. Williams he appeared only to be willing to refund the book price itself, after I returned the book, leaving me with all the postage costs. You can imagine I have a very unpleasant taste after this experience. Therefore I would like to know whether there are other SMMLlies who had similar experiences, and in any case I would like to put anybody on guard doing business this way, and with this bookseller in particular. Regards, Maarten Schönfeld The Netherlands ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "Allan and Crystal Plumb" Subject Invincible (1914) color Greetings. I (very) recently obtained the CommanderSeries/Iron Shipwright HMS Invincible, 1913, in 1/350. I have two questions -- IIRC John S and others have said that WWI ship colors pretty much matched one of the AP507s? Which one? I'm looking for Invincible at the Falklands (the one time a battlecruiser succeeded at one of its design goals). -- Would a 1914 RN ship have the black line to separate the red and grey on the hull? Pictures in John Robert's "Battlecruisers" imply otherwise, but ortho/pan/etc so I dunno. I have one answer -- Yes, David, in a little while. -- Allan "Pity it's not Courageous/Glorious" Plumb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From beyondsun@mindspring.com Subject Re: Invincible (1914) color Allan, You're cracking me up with your quips (below), buddy! And it sounds like you lurked my recent thread on battlecruisers over at ModelFleet http//p196.ezboard.com/fmodelfleetfrm59.showMessage?topicID=365.topic Which, of course, I invite any- and all to do. And to chime in w/your "own story" as well. (Meantime, all you 1/200 Renwal FBM guys, I haven't forgotten you; I'm working on production molds for the J-props, all-moving rudders and diving planes. Plus the masters for the nose cone/bow correction.) Sorry I don't have any answer(s) for your questions, Alan - though I would absolutely expect that most RN ships had black boot-stripes in WWI. But again, over at ModelFleet Martin Quinn is very knowlegeable about Invincible and also recently posted a couple pics of work on the same kit http//p196.ezboard.com/fmodelfleetfrm59.showMessage?topicID=352.topic Hope this (ultimately) helps. Cheers, -Matty Allan and Crystal Plumb wrote > > Greetings. > > I (very) recently obtained the CommanderSeries/Iron Shipwright HMS > Invincible, 1913, in 1/350. > I have two questions > -- IIRC John S and others have said that WWI ship colors pretty much > matched one of the AP507s? > Which one? I'm looking for Invincible at the Falklands (the one time > a battlecruiser succeeded > at one of its design goals). > -- Would a 1914 RN ship have the black line to separate the red and grey > on the hull? Pictures > in John Robert's "Battlecruisers" imply otherwise, but ortho/pan/etc > so I dunno. > I have one answer > -- Yes, David, in a little while. > > -- Allan "Pity it's not Courageous/Glorious" Plumb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "Harold Stockton" Subject Re: Experience with an Internet book seller Concerning the buying of books from Internet places like Amazon.com and Abebooks.com and their second-hand accounts has always been very straight forward and with no hitches. The products were as advertised, delivered quickly, and always gave me the utmost confidence to continue buying from all over the world. What you described I have never heard of. Though postage is normally lost in any non-satisfactory transaction that I have ever been involved with, I do think that if you agreed to pay for the original postage fee if they would return the remainder, and I would return it insured fully, then consider it a learning experience to not use Abebooks.com sub-dealer. Turn in a bad report on the transaction if they allow such a thing, and proceed on with your life. All of the dealers that I have dealt with from Japan, France, Yugoslavia, Sweden, Russia and many others have all been a good experience. I think is the odd man out. Harold Stockton Round Rock, TX ----- Original Message ----- From "Maarten Schönfeld" Subject [SMML] Experience with an Internet book seller Dear SMMLlies, I want to express with some restraint that I have had a rather unpleasant experience with an Internet book seller. This was about a second-hand book which was found on the ABE-booksite, www.abebooks.com. This is an intermediate webshop for several private book stores. The book in case was "Transactions of the Institution of Naval Architects, 1926 " Once I had made my buy it was revealed to me that the book was sold by Military Books, of Richard P.W. Williams in the United States. In the course of this transaction several things appeared to go wrong 1) The book was advertised as describing one specific subject (i.e. the launching arrangements of HMS Nelson and Rodney, with many fold-out drawings). When I finally received the book, only one chapter of it (13 pages out of over 300) was devoted to this subject and only one sketchy drawing related to this launching. The rest of the book was full with other articles on naval boiler efficiency, harbour layouts etcetera, you name it. No word about these other subjects had been in the ad. 2) Immediately after the buy Mr. Williams increased the shipping fee from $10.00 to $30.00, with an extra $3 for insurance. He told me that claiming this amount was justified because the book was large, and he referred to the 'small printon the ABE site. I grudgingly accepted this 200 % increase in shipping cost. After I received it, the book appeared to be only marginally over the limit weight of 2.2 lbs (1kg) for the normal shipping rate. 3) When I approved Mr. Williams to withdraw $ 83 from my credit card, I was very surprised that I found $ 103.00 was withdrawn instead. I protested immediately, Mr. Williams apologised and told me he would correct the withdrawal but I am still awaiting the final result of the withdrawal. 4) After arrival of the book, it was immediately clear that the contents were very disappointing referring to the ad. After another complaint to mr. Williams he appeared only to be willing to refund the book price itself, after I returned the book, leaving me with all the postage costs. You can imagine I have a very unpleasant taste after this experience. Therefore I would like to know whether there are other SMMLlies who had similar experiences, and in any case I would like to put anybody on guard doing business this way, and with this bookseller in particular. Regards, Maarten Schönfeld The Netherlands ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Rees, Graham" Subject Re: Experience with an Internet book seller Find out what law affects the contract of sale. At law, sale is usually your address or the vendor's business. You contracted to buy "X" (for example a spoon). If a vendor supplied "Y" (a fork) it cannot keep your money if it did not supply "X" (a spoon). It may be able to keep part/all your money if there was doubt about what you wanted (you did not say you wanted exactly a "spoon", not something part spoon & part fork). If you CLEARLY stated you want a book ONLY about "X" (or their advert said it was ONLY about "X") and they sent you a book 10% about "X", they sent the wrong book. The contract is void. Money is returnable & book returned at their cost. Some jurisdictions have laws to prevent consumers being victimised by sharp vendors. Perhaps your home laws (or the vendor's home laws) allow or require your credit card to be re-credited. Beware that different jurisdictions within one country can have different laws in this area. Some jurisdictions override contracts that try to limit refunds if there are sharp business dealings (eg it is not possible to contract out of certain rights). This may include a sale where the purchaser relies on the description given by the vendor. Perhaps your credit card provider, or someone like a "Banking Industry Ombudsman" or a "Department of Fair Trading" can help determine your rights and what to do. "Buyer Beware" (caveat emptor) has been modified in many jurisdictions. Sometimes, your credit card provider can re-credit your card if you have a serious dispute with vendor, perhaps including a book greatly different to an advertisment. If you card is re-credited, you are in a better position you still have the book, but you also must act reasonably. Sometimes, the complaint will be forwarded by your credit card provider to the vendor's bank. If a vendor's bank gets too many sunstantiated complaints against the vendor, it might cancel the vendor's facility. They often keep registers of vendors that repeatedly offend (black-lists). Sometimes they are allowed/required to tell other banks. Similarly, businesses that allow referrals from their site (eg ABE Books, Amazon, etc) may delete links to repeat offenders, so you should consider telling them too. If you authorise payment from your card for "X" and the vendor just pockets your money (you are the victim of a fraud). You can invoke criminal law (police). People forget that you can be gaoled (jailed) for internet frauds. Intentionally sending wrong goods is also fraud (think diamond ring replaced with cubic zirconia ring). The standard of proof in criminal matters is higher, but the internet is used in frauds every minute. Back to reality if you intend to use these methods the first thing to do is check that you communicated clearly. If the vendor knew exactly what you wanted/expected but supplied something very different, you have a much stronger complaint than if your request had any ambiguity and thus could possibly mean different things to the prudent vendor. It is unreasonable to complain about your own ambiguous communications. Sometimes when you go back and re-read/re-consider what was said, you can see why the product supplied was different to what you first hoped. Graham Rees Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From beyondsun@mindspring.com Subject Re: Experience with an Internet book seller Hi Maarten, It certainly sounds like the seller has tried to exploit the fact that you are an overseas buyer; I don't like to see anyone in this country doing that. So thank you for bringing this matter to everyone's attention. One thing you may be able to check out is whether the shipping charge was actually justified. ("Fine print" notwithstanding.) Did you save the packaging? Because here in the USA, the postage is usually stamped right on the outside - or at least sufficient rate info to allow you to determine what it must have been. If you can/would send me this info (including the from- and -to addresses), I will be happy to make some enquiries for you at the local post office. Best of luck; I am rooting for you. A guy once tried to rip me off with an Internet purchase and I got him to straighten up by griping about it on-line, just exactly like you are doing! Cheers, -Matty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume