Subject: SMML Vol 3114 Date: 7 Apr 2006 00:00:09 -0000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re WWI Dazzle Colours 2: Re WWI Dazzle Colours 3: CMB models 4: Re WWI Dazzle Colours 5: Re WWI Dazzle Colours 6: Re Smithsonian catalog of plans ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From Robert Burgerhout Subject Re WWI Dazzle Colours Hi Ron, I must disappoint you. The artist of "Dazzle Painting etc." did not use the source you mentioned for his color "reconstructions". He used the "Specifications for standard camouflage colors, the working formulae for producing these paints", edited by the Bureau of Construction and Repair of the Navy Department in Washington, DC, and the original colordrawings for the camouflage designs made by Norman Wilkinson. After the exibition in 1987 I talked with Albert Roskam and Rob Slikkeveer and could also examine the original painting he made for the pages 28 & 29, based on the above mentioned sources. I have copies of the painting formulea from the "Specifications etc." and camo desings on the exposition. George, You cannot use the color dots in the book, for they are printed impressions. I have the names of the colors and my own optical impression compared with Methuen and the Federal Standard. When you want more information you can contact me off-list. Greetings, Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From George Colleen Hargreaves Subject Re WWI Dazzle Colours Hello Ron, Thanks for your comments. Concur that the dots say very little. But I have noticed the dots do correspond to named colours on the 10 colour cards of standardized merchant schemes. These cards bear the mark 'Colours on plan are for the purpose of measurement only. Actual colours as per Colour Chart.' But there is only one red, white and black called for by the cards. The dots have the same pattern, 1 red and 1 black. There are 3 blues and 4 greys called out on the cards, the dots have the same number of blues and greys. These colour dots do correspond with the naming convention that David Williams provided in 'naval Camouflage 1914-1945' on page 239 where 22 colours are named. But, the dots are printed colours and ink is not paint. So the question remains, what colours were on the infamous Colour Chart? Cheers, George Ron Smith wrote They are in fact an interpretation of the original 1" chalk colored squares that appear in a report on WWI camouflage with Methuen/Ridgeway colors codes. Most of them are not camouflage colors at all, they are colors that appear in certain sea and sky states. Those colors were then used to determine how best to make a ship blend into the sea and sky. The color dots/squares themselves will tell you next to nothing, you need the report that goes with the sample set to make sense of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Roger Pearson" Subject CMB models For Ken Goldman, Ken if you think the kit quality leaves a little to be desired, may I suggest you gently/carefully suggest that to Tony bearing in mind if he improves the quality then the price may be accordingly higher. I must admit I haven't seen these kits, but I'm sure Tony would accept constructive criticism especially if it then relates to more sales. Roger P in OZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From Ron Smith Subject Re WWI Dazzle Colours Robert, I hate to bust your bubble but.......... Robert Burgerhout wrote >Hi Ron, > >I must disappoint you. The artist of "Dazzle Painting etc." did not use the source you mentioned for >his color "reconstructions". He used the "Specifications for standard camouflage colors, the working >formulae for producing these paints", edited by the Bureau of Construction and Repair of the Navy >Department in Washington, DC, and the original colordrawings for the camouflage designs made by >Norman Wilkinson. I recently had the exact documents from Bureau of Construction and Repair, Maintenenace Section, Camouflage Design Group 1916-1919 in hand. I have seen, photographed and scanned everything that exists in that record group and am in the process of scanning the negatives into .tif files. I HAVE copies of the original set of color chips that the "34 dots" were interpreted from, the originals are done in chalk and carry the exact same Methuen/Ridgeway codes in the book you mention. The set of color samples just referred to are part of a hardbound report which explains their use, there is no paint mixing information in that report. The purpose of the chips are exactly what I said they are "Most of them are not camouflage colors at all, they are colors that appear in certain sea and sky states. Those colors were then used to determine how best to make a ship blend into the sea and sky." Now think about those exact words........those colors were what they used to determine paint shades that *might* work, no suprise that some of them are very close to the 22 actual colors (other than the neutral 5 that are black to white). Also in that report are B&W photos of ships with water or oil paintings done from the same place at the same time to illustrate just what the colors did. >After the exibition in 1987 I talked with Albert Roskam and Rob Slikkeveer and could also examine >the original painting he made for the pages 28 & 29, based on the above mentioned sources. I have >copies of the painting formulea from the "Specifications etc." and camo desings on the exposition. I have copies of the original documents.....paint formulae, design sheets and all the related text plus photos. >You cannot use the color dots in the book, for they are printed impressions. I have the names of the colors and my own optical impression compared with Methuen and the Federal Standard. >When you want more information you can contact me off-list. I have not only the color names and formulae, I also have matches to actual USN and RN paint samples to the 1943 edition of the 1929 Munsell Book of Color. No "optical impression" but actual matching to the Munsell chips from the actual samples. I also have a list of RN colors that are exact matches to Windsor-Newton artists' oils per Admiralty orders. I guess the correspondance between BuC&R, the British Admiralty, USN ONI, the French Navy, Adm. David Taylor, Norman Wilkinson, Andrew MacKay, Everett Longley Warner, Abbot Thayer, Dr. Maximillian Toch, Louis Herzog, Gerome Brush, Josephus Daniels and F.D. Roosevelt; the reports done by Camouflage Design Group; 20 or so folders marked "Secret On His Majesty's Service"; the theories expounded by the camoufleurs, the lists of "Dazzle and Camouflage Officers" with their reports; the lists of which ships got painted what design, by who and where; the literally thousands of design sheets; after action reports; the various USN orders relating to camouflage; the Submarine Defense Association's proposals and reports; Eastman Kodak's experimental records and reports; the logs of sea and sky states with colors observed (based on those very same color chips) and the British Admiralty's final report on the effectiveness of dazzle painting mean nothing. I suppose you've read even 5% of those original documents (I've only managed to fully read about 20% between copying the originals and scanning in the negatives....note that's read not simply scan to see if it's worth copying or a duplicate). Yes, there will be a series of books coming from all that. BTW-only a very small percentage of the designs were by Wilkinson himself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From Ron Smith Subject Re WWI Dazzle Colours Hi George, George Colleen Hargreaves wrote >Hello Ron, > >Thanks for your comments. Concur that the dots say very little. But I >have noticed the dots do correspond to named colours on the 10 colour >cards of standardized merchant schemes. These cards bear the mark >'Colours on plan are for the purpose of measurement only. Actual colours >as per Colour Chart.' But there is only one red, white and black called >for by the cards. The dots have the same pattern, 1 red and 1 black. >There are 3 blues and 4 greys called out on the cards, the dots have the >same number of blues and greys. These colour dots do correspond with the >naming convention that David Williams provided in 'naval Camouflage >1914-1945' on page 239 where 22 colours are named. There was no actual chart from what I have found. There are actual paint samples on sized artists' canvas. Some are oils and some are watercolors, some did not survive well but most did and by Munsell matching multiples of most of the colors good matches have been obtained. There were white, black, 4 greys, 4 blues, 4 greens, 3 grey/greens, 4 grey/blues, 3 greens, 3 olives, 2 yellows, 2 mauves in actual sample form. There are 4 yellows, 3 yellow/greens, 4 reds, 4 mauves in specifications during the experimental phase and there are formulae for most of them and Windsor-Newton matches for them as well. That excludes aircraft and submarine specific colors that are also in the documents. >But, the dots are printed colours and ink is not paint. So the question >remains, what colours were on the infamous Colour Chart? Sorry but you'll just have to wait for the books, I've got too much time and money tied up in researching this to post it for free. I've got the tip of the iceberg copied and it's enough to prepare a book proposal, I still have many months of work getting all the design sheets copied. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "Paul Giltz" Subject Re Smithsonian catalog of plans Some time ago I was looking for information on the ship plans held in a catalog that the Smithsonian Museum had published. The Smithsonian has a collection of ship plans for the ships designed by the US Maritime Commision between 1939 and 1969. I have never seen the catalog. Some of the SMML group offered to help but it was at one of those ackward times when vacations blocked email addresses and I was unable to connect with those who offered to help. Does anyone who is currently getting the SMML have the Smithsonian's catalog? I'd still like to know which ships are covered. Thanks, Paul Giltz, Toledo, Ohio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume