Subject: SMML Vol 3133 Date: 15 May 2006 09:59:03 -0000 The Ship Modelling Mailing List (SMML) is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http//sandlehobbies.com For infomation on how to Post to SMML and Unsubscribe from SMML http//smmlonline.com/aboutsmml/rules.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1 SMML Archive update 2 SMML Update 3 Bismark vs. Vanguard 4 New SMML Mainbrace Gallery for Bob Evans 5 Re SMML Update 6 HMNZS OTAGO Fire-Control Radar (Re [SMML] SMML Update) 7 BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) 8 Re SMML Update 9 RAN Reference Page updated 10 Re HMNZS OTAGO Fire-Control Radar 11 Re BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) 12 1/700 Yamato - old mold 13 BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re Bismacrk vs. Vanguard) 14 USN - Spring Styles- book #3 1939-44 15 BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) 16 Re BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re Bismacrk vs. Vanguard) 17 Re USN - Spring Styles- book #3 1939-44 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From "SMML" smml@smmlonline.com Subject SMML Archive update Hi all, Have just finished updating to SMML Archives to SMML Vol 3132 Please not that I will be continuing the Digest numbering as before and am converting the Yahoo Digests to the "normal" format eg Yahoo Digest No 40 = SMML Vol 3132. There's more updates to come in the coming days, if you have submitted anything over the past year of so and don't see it, get back to me & I'll make sure it's uploaded. All the best, Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From "SMML" smml@smmlonline.com Subject SMML Update Hi, Charles George send in pictures of HMNZS Otago during a RAS http//smmlonline.com/reference/newzealandships.html Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From "Norman Samish" ncsamish@ptera.net Subject Bismark vs. Vanguard There is a fascinating discussion of Bismark vs. Iowa at http//tinyurl.com/j93p2 Vanguard or Washington might have been roughly comparable to Iowa. Norman Samish ----- Original Message ----- From "randy.nugent" Subject Bismark vs. Vanguard I made this inquiry elsewhere, but I would appreciate the abundant knowkedge and experience of you good folk being directed towards this topic. I have recently read about a new resin Vanguard kit, and as I was doing so I began to wonder about the various new and innovative features of the Vanguard as the last built British battleship. If Vanguard had been the ship up against the Bismark, how do you think events would have developed? Likewise if the Iowa or Washington had to face Bismark, what do you think events would have been. And of course, the really big question is "WHY?" events would have taken such a progression. This would encompass comparing features and abilities, weaknessess, and the rival (if so) design philosophies. Sincere appreciation, Randy Nugent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From "SMML" smml@smmlonline.com Subject New SMML Mainbrace Gallery for Bob Evans Hi all, Bob Evans now has a new Mainbrace Gallery with models he took to the ACTSMS Competition last year http//smmlonline.com/members/mainbrace/bob_evans/bob_evans.html Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From "Steve Norton" rdrpltr271@yahoo.com Subject Re SMML Update Boy, did you stir up some memories! I had the pleasure to spend a week cross-polled in Canterbury from HMCS Qu'Appelle. Tots under the 4.5 at 1115....those were the days. Just wanted to say thanks for turning my thoughts towards better days. Steve SMML wrote Hi, Charles George send in pictures of HMNZS Otago during a RAS http//smmlonline.com/reference/newzealandships.html Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From "beyondsun@mindspring.com" beyondsun@mindspring.com Subject HMNZS OTAGO Fire-Control Radar (Re [SMML] SMML Update) Hi Shane, Charles - and everybody Charles (or anyone), I took a look at your excellent Otago pics and it inspired a question. I note, behind and above the bridge, in front of the foremast, there is a twin- (Cassegrain) antenna radar director; it looks very much like a SAM missile tracking array. However I can't see any missile launchers in front of it; I thought missiles had to be launched from in front of such directors for them to work. Is the above not true; is there a launcher(s) elsewhere on the ship controlled by this director? Or is it not a missile director at all? Of course, I could surf on-line to find out all this, but figured it would be much more fun to hear it from you guys at SMML! LOL And speaking of which great job with all the updates, Shane - you 'Da Man, and we appreciate it, buddy! Cheers, -Matty SMML wrote > > Hi, > > Charles George send in pictures of HMNZS Otago during a RAS > > http//smmlonline.com/reference/newzealandships.html > > Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From "beyondsun@mindspring.com" beyondsun@mindspring.com Subject BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) Hi Norman & Randy, This kind of discussion raises a question I've always had about Bismarck - especially the added tidbit of her "fast rate of fire" mentioned on the board discussion below (Norman). And that is how Rodney and KGV were permitted to close and destroy Bismarck without either sustaining any major damage themselves. I have seen the firsthand, underwater pics of the Bismarck wreck showing numerous, practically horizontal hits, piercing even her citadel armor (claims of it's impossibility - on that board discussion - notwithstanding). It is clear that Rodney and KGV not only shelled Bismarck extensively, but also got in VERY close to do it - without either receiving a single (damaging) hit, AFAIK. Now I know Bismarck was practically completely immobilized. But even so, why didn't she open sufficiently accurate fire to hurt the RN BBs (even a little) during the many minutes it must've taken for them to close on her? Again, particularly considering her rapid rate of fire - not to mention her radar-assisted fire control? Any insights/comments - from any of you-all - greatly appreciated! Cheers, -Matty Norman Samish wrote > There is a fascinating discussion of Bismark vs. Iowa at http//tinyurl.com/j93p2 Vanguard or Washington might have been roughly comparable to Iowa. > Norman Samish > > ----- Original Message ----- > From "randy.nugent" > Subject Bismark vs. Vanguard > > I made this inquiry elsewhere, but I would appreciate the abundant knowkedge and experience of you good folk being directed towards this topic. > > I have recently read about a new resin Vanguard kit, and as I was doing so I began to wonder about the various new and innovative features of the Vanguard as the last built British battleship. If Vanguard had been the ship up against the Bismark, how do you think events would have > developed? > > Likewise if the Iowa or Washington had to face Bismark, what do you think events would have been. > > And of course, the really big question is "WHY?" events would have taken such a progression. This would encompass comparing features and abilities, weaknessess, and the rival (if so) design philosophies. > > Sincere appreciation, > Randy Nugent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From "Charles Jones" azsbdd@earthlink.net Subject Re SMML Update Shane, Just a note that the name is Charles Jones instead of Charles George. Charles Jones Aw Hell - sorry mate, don't know how that happened ;-(. I've fixed up the page. Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From "SMML" smml@smmlonline.com Subject RAN Reference Page updated Hi all, The following RAN pages have been added and updated at http//smmlonline.com/reference/ranships.html Added HMAS Newcastle, HMAS Melbourne III, HMAS Vampire II, RAN Misc, RAN Radars, RAN Weapons Updated HMAS Ballarat II, HMAS Kanimbla II, HMAS Manoora II, HMAS Parramatta IV, HMAS Stuart III, HMAS Success II, HMAS Sydney IV, HMAS Tobruk II. Plus I uploaded the latest Shiplist to articles Regards, Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From "potter4@att.net" potter4@att.net Subject Re HMNZS OTAGO Fire-Control Radar Good eye, and I concur that this is a fun topic. You're correct that it's a fire-control radar. It's RN radar type 275, a 1942 design. This radar operated at 3.5GHz radar S-band = EW F-band. It aimed the 4.5-inch gun twin mount. When modernizing the Rothesay-class Type 12 frigates, the RN scrapped this director and replaced it with a new director based on the USN Mk 56 director, with a radar operating at 9GHz radar X-band = EW I-band. S-band is good at detection (the USN's SPY-1 electronically-scanning search radar for Aegis uses S-band) but lacks the precision to guide a missile to a hit. Modern missile fire control radars typically operate at 10GHz-40GHz (J-K bands). Aegis has separate fire control radars to aim the missiles during the terminal engagement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From "Daniel Kurtz" DKurtz@Ameritech.net Subject Re BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) beyondsun@mindspring.com wrote > Now I know Bismarck was practically completely immobilized. But even > so, why didn't she open sufficiently accurate fire to hurt the RN BBs > (even a little) during the many minutes it must've taken for them to > close on her? Again, particularly considering her rapid rate of fire - > not to mention her radar-assisted fire control? The RN BBs opened fire at conventionally longer ranges. Initially, Bismarck's fire was more accurate, and Rodney straddled once, before it rapidly deteriorated. Presumably there was major damage at that point to the centralized fire control. After that point, Rodney closed range and proceeded to pound Bismarck with 'horizontal' hits, while KGV stood-off and contributed 'plunging' fire (at an erratic rate, since she was having trouble with her guns/turrets/loading trains.) The lion's share of the credit for destroying Bismarck probably belongs to Rodney. IIRC, Bismarck's fire control radar was shock-damaged when she fired her first salvoes, some days earlier, at Norfolk, and I don't know that it was ever put back into operation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From "Daniel Kurtz" dkurtz@ameritech.net Subject 1/700 Yamato - old mold Hey, I got one at a garage sale. For the equivalent of a buck, I'm not to worried by the fact that by modern standards it's considered horribly innacurate, and apparently more resembles a 1920 Great Lakes excursion steamer more that one of largest battleships, and palest white elephants, ever made. ddk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From "Norman Samish" ncsamish@ptera.net Subject BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re Bismacrk vs. Vanguard) Daniel, thanks for your contribution. Rodney, surely one of the ugliest ships ever built, was, nevertheless, effective. If the Bismarck's fire-control radar had not been damaged, perhaps the Bismarck's fire would have been even more accurate. I wonder if Aryan Arrogance might have had something to do with it? Of course, British Admiralty arrogance also contributed to their mistakes. We all have 20-20 hindsight! ----- Original Message ----- From Daniel Kurtz Subject Re BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) The RN BBs opened fire at conventionally longer ranges. Initially, Bismarck's fire was more accurate, and Rodney straddled once, before it rapidly deteriorated. Presumably there was major damage at that point to the centralized fire control. After that point, Rodney closed range and proceeded to pound Bismarck with 'horizontal' hits, while KGV stood-off and contributed 'plunging' fire (at an erratic rate, since she was having trouble with her guns/turrets/loading trains.) The lion's share of the credit for destroying Bismarck probably belongs to Rodney. IIRC, Bismarck's fire control radar was shock-damaged when she fired her first salvoes, some days earlier, at Norfolk, and I don't know that it was ever put back into operation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From "Paul Giltz" PaulShip57@hotmail.com Subject USN - Spring Styles- book #3 1939-44 The internet is making more information available than ever before. I just found an interesting web site < http//www.history.navy.mil/photos/albums/s511.htm > that contains 66 plans of preliminary studies of numerous types of ships that the USN considered or actually built during WWII. This was known as the 'Spring Styles Book # 3 ' apparently a take off of the spring style books that fashion designers would release to announce the new lines of women's fashions. Some of these plans were unknown to me, for example a 30,000 ton oiler/ aircraft carrier, or a plan to convert the Alaska Class CBs into aircraft carriers. Take a look, interesting. Paul Giltz, Toledo, Ohio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From "michaeltf72" MEDWAY@bigpond.com Subject BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re [SMML] Bismark vs. Vanguard) Sort of on topic, has anyone ever seen Alex McFaddyn's award winning model of the Vanguard or have any idea where he or it are these days? Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From "Matt" startux@algieba.org Subject Re BISMARCK's LAST BATTLE (Re Bismacrk vs. Vanguard) "Of course, British Admiralty arrogance also contributed to their mistakes." Not to mention the First Lord of the Admiralty's intoxicated arrogance. There is a rumour, not sure if its true, that the RN feared him more than any enemy. Anyway, don't want this to get too political. As for Rodney, well hopefully without offending anybody...Remember 'Only Fools and Horses'? Matt Norman Samish wrote > Daniel, thanks for your contribution. Rodney, surely one of the > ugliest ships ever built, was, nevertheless, effective. If the > Bismarck's fire-control radar had not been damaged, perhaps the > Bismarck's fire would have been even more accurate. I wonder if Aryan > Arrogance might have had something to do with it? Of course, British > Admiralty arrogance also contributed to their mistakes. > > We all have 20-20 hindsight! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From "donsrcships@wmconnect.com" donsrcships@wmconnect.com Subject Re USN - Spring Styles- book #3 1939-44 Good Morning from Sunny Portland OREGON. I just check out this web sight, YES it is well worth any bodys time that likes ships plans to check it out. Thanks from DON That Portland Rustbucket ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Reviews, Articles, Backissues, Member's models & Reference Pictures at http//smmlonline.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume